The comments section on the previous post (part 3) is full now. This page is here so you may leave your comments here instead. Please post any new comments on this page. They will probably NOT show up on the part 3 page. It is almost full.
If you live in the Valley and you want to know what is happening..........GO TO THE SERVICE. For those of you in Ft. Myers it is time to get over whatever happened there.
Easy for you to say. Let's see what the people of Pathways have to say about it all 3 years from now. I'm willing to bet there will still be many discouraged, hurting people still talking about what happened there. That's just the way it is. So I guess only you people in the "valley" have the right to be upset?? I can't fathom any reasons to "GO TO THE SERVICE" there anymore either. The place is a mess. This is not something that one "gets over" all that easily. It has destroyed many lives. Since you are so obviously "over it" you can quit making comments here. Nobody needs to hear from you anymore.
Wha Wha Wha. Tired of being a victim yet? I love pathways church. 3 years from now should something like this go down - we'll say...."that's a shame. God restore the broken and protect the hearts of the innocent" but will we let our life be consumed for years with hatred and stirring as much crap as possible in an attempt to destroy Brad. No. You give warning, you notify leadership and let God be God and let them learn whatever it is they get to learn from their choices. That's kinda how real life works. btw- there was no earth shattering announcement this weekend. Go figure.
Interesting.. you reference "you people in the valley'" Meaning that you are most likely not local, but you're able to say that "the place is a mess." Are you basing "that place is a mess," on only information from this board? it's pretty one sided.
The church is a collective group of people. Apparently, in FL it was more about Brad. Many people here didn't trust Brad already. Many people have returned to the church since Brad left.
I go to Pathways church but a family event took us out of town and we were not able to attend this weekend's service. I am anxious to know if anything substantial was announced at church this weekend, given a posting which indicated there would be.
At last weekend's service I again refused to put any money in the collection basket... instead I wrote a note & said I would not do so until there was a church meeting and an audit of Pathway's finances. As the service went on, I wondered if I needed to get past what had happened & start to embrace the people who are trying to keep this church together. I see the other pastors working hard to keep things together (although I think Brad's brother is just a goof ball & not sure of his role in the church other than to entertain? He looks like he just pulled himself out of the college dorm when he comes to church).
I would be disappointed if Lance announces he is leaving. I think he's got the maturity & sincerity to keep the church going (although I thought Brad was sincere too, so what do I know?)
Anyway.. please share here what was discussed at church. There are some who do attend.. but couldn't make it this weekend.
There will be a meeting for everyone to discuss the future of the church on May 28th. I will be very disappointed if Lance leaves too. Dave and Lance both seem to be very genuine and humble men. I hope they both stick around and help Pathways continue.
May 28th is a long time away. These people at the church can't manage to put together a church congregational meeting before that? By then, many will have already made the decision to leave. It will be too little too late most likely.
I agree May 28th is way too long. I think they are hoping that time will lesson the emotions people have. That or the board is unable to get everyone together until then. I think board members should be available within a short time, when dealing with issues of the church, not when it works for their schedule. Most are business men/women that have huge responsibilities. We need new board members that live their lives for and LOVE the Lord! Lets keep God at the core!
Yes and yes. It doesn't take a PhD in anything to see that it's a pretty messed up place right now. Anybody with a little bit of common sense can see that.
I think we are all a little messed up. The staff is doing the best they cam with what they've been given to deal with. I for one am going to stay for now. I don't want to bail until I know what the future holds. God makes beauty out of ashes and although I agree there needs to be further communication and changes to the board I'd like to wait and see what God has in store for Pathways.
I am really having a problem with you Florida folks being upset with what has happened at pathways. Why don't you spend some tine on the coverup there ? I am sure Brad did all the things you say but Belzer is just a guilty. I called him and he refused to talk to me unless I had a court order. Sure sounds like he has something to cover up. We will take care of our situation in Appleton so why don't you finally take care of business in Ft. Myers once and for all.
Brad Liebe has devastated two churches and countless families. Both the Florida Church and Pathways have this in common. The problem started when the Church in Florida did not press charges. Most people who steal that amount of money from an employer go to jail. Betzer does have something to hide which is why he wanted the entire thing to go away so quickly. He too is an adulterer and thief. Brad knows this and used this as an ace in his pocket when settling with first AG. Brad never learned his lesson. He escaped with a little embarrassment and that is basically it. The people of Florida and Pathways need to work together to be sure that we do not pass this on to the next group of people. I agree that we should let God be God but the fact is God uses people to execute His will. Brad has no business being a pastor or in any church leadership. Frankly, we owe it to Brad and his family to make sure that he is removed for good from the pulpit. God can and will forgive. God can and will restore Brads family but he has handed over his calling because of his selfish acts of greed and adultery. Please, let’s work together on this. We should not act as a lynch mob but rather a group of people (the church) who is willing to do the right thing so others may not have to go through the pain we have. Love Brad and his family but do not allow him to pastor again!
We in Ft. Myers have "gotten over" Brad. He is a far distant memory for those of us who have been long attendee's. We have so many new members that wouldn't have an idea who Brad was. We have all moved on and are very happy with our church and our pastors. Some of us were concerned when we understood Brad took over a church. We knew what the inevitable would be. Hopefully this charlatan will not bilk anyone else. Please understand that some of us have commented out of love and concern, never to criticize.
Brad gets kicked out of the AG so Larry Liebe pulls some strings and next thing you know he is Pastor of Pathways. You have not seen the last of him, he will get another gig.
Last year at this time it was Chris and Kelly Dudley (both) missionaries to Convoy of Hope (both sets of their parents are AG missionaries and knew about the money and affair by the way). Now, Chris is an "employee" of Convoy and Kelly isn't even though nothing has changed.
LoL ..... Hey everyone, do yourself a favor and have a beer, read a Frank Viola book, and get out of the organized church as soon as you can. Give your tithe money to a single mom or to someone that could really use it.
That quote is one of the biggest cop outs ever. I know it's all enlightened and accepting to quote people like Gandhi and Buddha and people of their ilk. If he liked Christ than he should've followed Him. Same goes for you and anyone else who tries to hide behind the old "Christians are hypocrites" mantra. Tired of it.
Yeah it is. As a Christian, I believe Jesus who said that God had put all things under his feet. Therefore, when a person uses the hypocrisy of those claiming to follow Christ or (gasp!) actually following Christ as a reason not to bow their knee to the God of all glory, it's a cop out. Don't care if Gandhi, Oprah, or Joe the plumber said it. The fact that you call a statement like that "one of the most accurate observations" is telling.
Lance is leaving, the church just hasn't announced it because of all the shock the church is currently going through. Pastor Lance and Dave are great people, sincere and people of God. I haven't figured what Brandons role is either. But thats how it goes when relation hires relation. Jo Ellen was doing a great job, Brandon kind of just took over. We have stopped giving also and will continue very guarded to see how things are handled as the church goes forward. My faith in the church organization as a whole has been crushed. What a sad situation. We are no better than the Catholics, moving the pedophile from one place to another.....isn't that exactly what we are doing? My faith in the church system has been crushed and the board can do everything they can to make things better. I can forgive but I will never forget, it will be hard for me to trust this organization unless they do the audit and hold Brad accountable, if he indeed did have his hand in the pot again. We asked about this and Brandon, said what good would it do? It would cost a lot of money to do it...sounds like another cover up in the Liebe family.
Lance is moving to Oregon to be closer to the rest of his family. He is leaving the ministry completely to work in another occupation. I know this as I am a member of the worship team. Lance is a good man and should not bear any critical comments here. He is doing what he feels is best for his family. He had decided to leave before the Brad blow up.
Even when you do an audit, it won't show abuses that Brad has surely been involved in.
Examples: Brad will have taken an international vacation, but it will look like a missions trip. He lived like a millionaire and did $200 lunches, but that is just a ministry expense. He funneled money to his family, one of which he was having sex with, but it will look like missions giving.
Do yourself a favor ... instead of giving your tithe money to Brad Liebe, Larry Liebe, Dan Betzer, Kelly Dudley, Roland Dudly, Paul Weis ...... give it to a family in need. Give it to a kid that can't afford dental care. Do what Jesus what do.
Not diminishing all the real hurt and pain at Pathways. I know it's tough times. But was this really a surprise? Brad Liebe's handling of scripture was deplorable, he tweeted nothing about his affection for the LORD, only his affection for espresso and snuggling with his kids, he yelled at specific people from the pulpit for things like leaving the service or putting their feet on the pews, and he stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from the last church he was at. Guy's a wolf plain and simple. It's shocking to me that people actually throw the "grace card" out there in this situation. Ironically, it's this mentality of "everyone sins and how dare you judge" that Brad preyed off of to get what he wanted: money, power, and sex. It's also why he got away with it for what? 4 years? I take it back, it's not that shocking since this is what passes for church in America most places: come get your coffee, clap to some music, get your kids in a good program, and listen to a message that's all about how awesome you are and how God can make you "awesomer."
If I were a Pathways attender I'd be more concerned about how he could pull this off for so long than I would be about what he's done. Anyone with an ounce of spiritual discernment should have seen and said something long ago.
Things were brought up (even to Brad himself) but everything was smoothed over and made to look like their was nothing wrong. This falls on the Board. I'm sure they knew more than they would ever be willing to admit. They need to be replaced with new people, new by laws ans fresh eyes to see differently! The meeting they are holding should be interesting. How that is handled will speak volumes.
Please don't bother to read this blog if you have nothing nice to say about Pathways church. That church helped me find God and I believe I have at least one ounce of spiritual discernment about me. I do however question yours for making such a harsh, unforgiving statment.
I didn't see where you had to have all kinds of "nice things" to say about Pathways church to read and respond on this blog. They have a forum for that: it's called their Facebook page.
The church is supposed to help people find and understand and worship God. They don't get a free pass for doing so. You've proved my point exactly. If you call what I said "harsh" and "unforgiving" what would you say to John the Baptist who called for repentance? Or for that matter, what about Jesus who called people "white washed tombs", "crooked and perverse", who took a bull whip into what amounts to a church and told those in it they had turned it into a "den of thieves." I'm not comparing myself to them so please don't get off on that tangent. This is a bigger deal than just Pathways church. Those who try to make others feel bad for caring about the spiritual health of their city and the fact that a man just fleeced and deceived thousands of people in the name of Christ should really stop and think what they're defending. It's not just Pathways but they have become an example. The example here is that they have a huge building, draw big crowds, and have a ton of people going in and out who could tell you the starting lineup of the Packers better than they could delineate the gospel. There's TONS of churches like Pathways out there. Last thing we should do is say all kinds of nice things about them, spout some out of context verse about how God has a plan for them, and go on with life.
Pathways Church is not the problem that is being discussed here. It is the wolf of a former pastor, Brad Liebe, who is being discussed. People can and often do find God sometimes even in spite of the pastor as in this case. You have the Holy Spirit to thank for that. Evidently, He called your name and you listened and responded. God is good. If you still cannot see that Brad Liebe was a false pastor then you have no spiritual discernment whatsoever.
For those of you that say, "Who is without sin? Brad's human like the rest of us." You need to understand that Brad is a serial sinner, without remorse or acknowledgment of his wrong doing. He is NOT like the rest of us. He just keeps doing bad things and getting away with it. He knew he should get out of the ministry after stealing all that money, but didn't. He knew he should step down after having an adulterous affair with his sister-in-law, but he chose not to. Instead he chose to have ANOTHER affair! He chose to blackmale and threaten people (including his family and close friends) to keep them quiet.
Brad Liebe is MOST DEFINITELY NOT like the rest of us. He's done far more damage than good in this lifetime.
The Liebe family is a dangerous group if arrogant fakes. You would be best to steer clear.
My computer won't let me reply to the post regarding people of Pathways having an ounce of spiritual discernment - so this post is for you.
If you are not a Pathways attender, how do you know so much about Brad? You are passing some serious judgement. Brad is definitely a wolf in sheep clothing and I don't condone any of what he did. BUT, it is not man's church, it is God's church and Pathways has touched a lot of lives. There's no denying Brad knew how to "do church".
If you are familiar with Pathways at all, you would know that Brad took a dying church and implemented strong Biblical principles. We pray for needs during worship, we have a Bible reading plan that members can follow, consistent worship/baptism services and have huge community outreaches. He took a dying church that barely preached the Bible and had mediocre worship to what it is today.
God did what he promises to do....mans sin will find them out. God didn't let Brad continue in HIS Kingdom work with his morals so out of whack. So now we move on and move forward as God's church.
Pass judgment all you want - but what happened is only making us stronger and I challenge you to find another church in the valley where the presence of God is felt any more than it is at Pathways. Anyone at the Encounter worship/baptism night last night will agree.
Not even sure where to start after that. Brad "implemented strong Biblical principles." Which ones? I couldn't care less that Brad knows how to "do church." In fact, that statement makes me want to vomit. What you're saying is he knows how to go through the right motions to manipulate people. He knows how to draw a crowd. What he doesn't know how to do is be a an actual Christian. How to be a humble servant. My guess is that his leadership fostered followers who are a lot like him. Looks good on the outside but at the core there is not a heartbeat for and a passion for the glory of Jesus Christ. Again, this is EVERYWHERE not just at Pathways. Don't be deceived. Your church is sick and God will need to do a healing work. Don't just cheerlead this thing away and get all puffed up about how awesome your church is.
You do need to move on and I hope that the people there seek the LORD more than ever before in the process. But if you're not careful you'll try to fill your pulpit with someone who knows how to pull all the same strings as Brad to make sure the crowds keep coming. Just that he doesn't sleep around. Attendance seems to be the standard for God's presence. If that's what Pathways is looking for they'll do the same thing they did last time they had to hire someone: find a guy who can "do church."
Is that why all your pastors are leaving? What about your corrupt board that can't be trusted? I don't doubt that you are a fine group of innocent victims, but Brad's preaching was VERY mediocre. There are far better preachers in the Valley. I am glad you were able to get something out of his nonsense, that is the Holy Spirit working despite all that Satan is doing to distract you! Praise God!! But seriously, your church is deeply flawed and will not get though this corruption with the same liars and cheats left in place. That is why all your pastors are leaving. Overturn your board and work on setting up some new bi-laws to operate under and you will likely be better off.
No doubt we need by-laws, a board of directors handbook with clear roles and term lin=mits. In essence good non-profit checks and balances and we can move forward very well. People will forget Brad fast. He is mistursuted and not liked by a lot of us. i know we can in the side door so he wouldn't kiss my wife-gross. We tolerated his sloppy sermons, his pushy style of asking for offering, his repetition of the same stories over and over and over. We loved what our kids were getting so stayed. We are excited to see what God will do know that he is gone.
Pathways was thriving when Brad came. I was an usher and saw the growth. There was excitement each Sunday as God was adding to the church for the past several months prior to his coming. The worship under Gary was actually more dynamic. The preaching was better than the repeated stories, the pusshy offerings, the talking so fast you couldn't keep up. Brad stepped into a great situation with a great staff. It takes a team! and took the credit. HUBRIS
What pastors are leaving other than Lance? And to the person who doesn't know where to star and wants to vomit...do you know what Godly Principles are??? READ THE POST YOU ARE RESPONDING TO. Bible reading, baptism, praying for the congregations needs. You don't think those are Godly principles? Also, the church IS for sick people and hurting people. It should be a place of healing and restoration. Not a place of pious, puffed up Pharisees of which you are sounding a lot alike. I'm glad you are not God and that I don't stand in your judgement!
Another post that ignores context. Not judging salvation. Stop using that tired line of argument. If we should exercise no judgment than Brad should still be your pastor.
Once again, no one is condemning Pathways Church. It is Brad Liebe who is being condemned here and rightfully so. I hope within everything in me that Pathways will survive and thrive. I hope a truly Godly man of God will be found to lead the church. Oh, and by the way, you do NOT have to be an "attender of Pathways" to know "so much about Brad." His reputation precedes him. Pathways people are not the only group of people who have been harmed by him. There are many, many others out there all over the world in fact.
In an attempt to put some facts to all this information I have contacted the IRS and completed the necessary forms along with along with links to this site as well as Chads blog. I named as part of the investigation Ft. Myers Assembly of God, Dan Belzer and Brad Liebe. This situation is now up to the IRS to investigate. Based on my experience as an IRS agent the service does not even report to God. What is at state for Dan and Brad is the use of church funds for personal use. As for the church this will put in jeopardy the tax exempt status. Basically this will cause a bigger mess than already exists. The AOG will not be able to talk their way out of this. If you want to know about this it is form 211 under IRS notice 2008-2 dated January 14, 2008.
His name is Dan BeTzer; NOT BeLzer. First Assembly in Ft. Myers already notified the IRS years ago when it all happened there. They turned everything over to them immediately to handle and Brad Liebe is paying the IRS taxes on the money he took from what I have heard. Nobody knows so far if he took any money from Pathways or not. Until that is figured out, there is nothing to report to the IRS. They certainly don't care about adultery which is what caused Brad to lose his job.
All I know is that God is mpving at pathways. Telling people to move on away is trying to cause division which is sata s work. Yes brad did wrong and should be turned ovet so his soul be changed because obviously he is not repentant..but to tell Christians to not gather because the board and.bylaws syructure need work and transsperancy is no reason to quit. In fact there has been a new freedom since brad was removed. Why leave when God is working? That's the problem in the church, people bashing it instead of being an example of a Cbrist follower. Only one pastor is leaving the currant ones are doing an amazing job. If you are afraid the Holy Spirit can't deal with this as good as you can Maybe you debbie downers should pray for healing of those brad hurt and move on. God is moving at pathways, people being saved, miracles happening, his presence stronvly touching lives. Instead of telling members of the body to isolate theirselves lets pray for unity in the body and for a revival in the valley like never before. Let all the parts in all the churches rise up as we are called to glorify God and preach the gospel, not discord. SOMETHING IS HAPPENING IN THESE LAST DAYS, TIME TO GET ON BOARD WITH JESUS, DON,T MISS OUT, GOD WANTS TO MOVE IN HIS BODY POWERFULLY. COME ON, AWAKEN CHURCH OF THE LIVING ONE AND ONLY GOD.!!
Brad has developed the ability to believe his own lies. He believes he was set up in Fort Myers and that Dan Betzer reconsidered his stance on retirement. He believed that he would not get a fare shake when it came to the restoration process the AG has in place. He believes he has superior inelegance to those he works with and preaches to. He somehow believes that stealing and adultery does not disqualify him for the ministry. Folks, Brad Liebe has his own sense of reality and truth. Do everything you can to separate yourself from him or you will get hurt, count on it!
I am a member of Pathways and I will admit that I am having a difficult time going back there. I love the friends that I have made the last 3 years but I no longer trust some of the other Pastors or the board members. And they say to talk to them if we have questions about anything - how can I ask them if I don't trust them? I hope as a church we can recover from this and move on but I for one will not follow so blndly anymore.
I tried replying to comments above about Lance and Dave and couldn't so I will put it here. I like and respect both Pastor Lance and Dave and I hope all this going on with Brad doesn't have negative effects on their life. I would actually like to see Pastor Dave step up to be lead Pastor if as a church we can recover.
Does it matter if the spelling isn't quite correct . From what I hear he is just as guilty of inappropriate use of church funds as Brad was. Is he also paying back the chhrch?? Ha ha. Fat chance.
I started going to Pathways 2years ago and I feel like such a fool! Brad pulled me in. This only makes me understand myself more. That I am still easily swayed by people with "that way of talking". Those people who know how to say the right thing and get you hooked. How do I trust again? When I thought I could trust... I'd been searching and I thought I found a place where my kids could find a good message. Again, this says a lot about me, about the people who believed in the lies.
It's obvious but needs to be stated clearly....Pathways Church is NOT Brad Liebe. What God is doing and has done in the lives of individuals experiencing the transformational love of Jesus is not the direct result of any Man - now matter how flawed or seemingly "perfect" they appear. That goes for Brad, Dave, Lance...anyone. Only the Holy Spirit draws men and women so don't be disillusioned by one mans screw up. Or fall into this pit of negativity. Put your focus on where it should be. The truth that sets your free and the message that gripped your heart doesn't change.
Trust the LORD. Listen to the LORD. He's real. He's listening. Let your faith in Him open the door for the power of His grace wherein you don't need to be rocked back and forth on the whims of boards and pastors. I pray that God sees this work he's started through to the end. You're on the right track.
Don't be too hard on yourself. This guy has been doing this for a lifetime. He fooled a lot of people. The other pastors at that church at the real deal.
Your post breaks my heart because I know exactly how you feel. I too was friends with Brad and Jana for many years and shared several special times with them. After learning of all the lying and cover ups and money that was stolen I was devastated. I felt so betrayed. I took it personally. I couldn't believe how blinded I was! I was angry at them, but also myself for being a part of the game. Then, when rumors started of his long-term affair with Kelly I didn't believe it for a minute. I knew them both and defended them insistently never believing they were capable of doing that to Jana! WOW how dismayed I was to learn the truth. It's troubling to me that I trusted, and defended, and believed in my pastor to be a good man. How stupid of me!!! Now I fear I may never trust a church or pastor ever again. How can I when I KNEW these people and still didn't believe it!?! I know your pain and fear and sadness. You are not alone! PLEASE don't blame yourself! It will eat you up. Please don't let the Liebe family crush your walk with The Lord or your faith. They are the bad ones, not you! Please don't blame yourself!!!
Just because a building has the word "church" on it does not mean that it's the Holy Spirit drawing people. Just like Culvers draws people with free ice cream so do "churches" draw with lights, music, and Easter egg hunts.
We need to be prepared for the meeting on the 28th! I heard they are going to ask for the questions to be written down and then the board will choose which ones to respond too. Will they answer the tough questions? Will the board make admissions and accept responsibility for the neglect of doing their job to protect the church and staff and for lacking in judgement? Will those most guilty (JJ) step down for the sake of the church? We will as a church family being willing to speak up as necessary at this meeting so we can move forward with leadership we can trust? This will be the make it or break it point for me. Mathew 18.
The board was told about what Brad's lying to get the job and did no investigating. They heard about his confession in Florida which confirmed his guilt and did no investigating. They were told about his affair and did no investigating. They were aware of all that was on the web and did no investigation. They were told about his abuse of staff members and did nothing. There were made aware of his outlandish/unethical spending and did nothing. And there is more. As a church we must do something and make them accountable! Make it on the 28th amd demand the truth. Demand we have biblical/spiritual leadership. It's time for a change that will allow us to move ahead with full confidence in our leaders. It's the piece of the puzzle needed for healing to be completed and for confidence to be restored.
I spoke with a fellow Pathways member yesterday and I mentioned how awful all of this was and how disappointed I was. They responded with, yes it's hard, but what Brad did was just a hiccup. I was surprised by his response and said, a 3 year affair with your sister-in-law and then another to follow is hardly a hiccup. He said to me, oh no it wasn't that long. It was just a one time thing. I couldn't believe my ears!!!! People are so easily deceived! So quick to justify Brad's sin and defend him! How can you be so blind? How can you defend a man that has done serious damage to our faith on a world-wide level? I am appalled and dismayed by our lack if discernment. Pathways PLEASE stop justifying Brad and the board's actions. We have the power and opportunity to be heard and end this charade! Show up on the 28th and be heard! DO NOT allow them to lie to us anymore!!! Speak the truth! And to my fellow members.... Please don't take this lightly. When you make light of brads behavior, you are doing nothing more than encouraging it. That's not ok.
Who were you getting these responses from, his brother? When we talked with Brandon, that's what we got, a let's not look back kind of approach. What relative wouldn't want to smooth over something their brother did and make it seem like it was hardly nothing? How can we respect these people as our leaders? You can't tell me they didn't know something was going on. Did anyone approach Brad? Check into the allegations? If I would have known about this blog before all of this, I would have been asking questions big time!
wow.. 1st of all, I want to say I am glad that I am not the only one that has all these questions. I will be at the meeting on the 28th and I am very curious as to what will be said there. 2) I have talked to other members and have gotten mixed responses. Some are lets forgive and forget, we need to move on, it's in God's hands, etc.. and others are more like me - how could this have been going on for so long and nothing be done about it? How can I trust this church again? Will my questions get answered honestly or with more lies? 3) I believe in God and this has not changed that. I hope Pathways can recover and I hope I can find the feeling of peace there that I once did.
If you really want to right the wrongs that have plagued Pathways, then you need to get at the root of the problem. What/who is at the root of it all? Mike Randerson. I know Mike. I like Mike. He really is a great guy but, like all of mankind, he's a sinner. How is Mike the problem? Mike is the one who established and ran the church from it's onset. Mike is the one who established the first board and the church's bylaws. These bylaws (or at least the way they were/weren't enforced) is where the first changes need to made. Pathway's bylaws do NOT follow biblical principals or church government examples. In Mike's church, Mike is "King". Whatever Mike (or his wife, Terri) wanted, Mike got. Regularly scheduled board meetings, as well as church body meetings, were few and far between if they existed at all. Board member elections were all for show as Mike "appointed" who he wanted when he wanted. Mike Randerson held all of the power in and over the church. This is far from the biblical model. The biblical model has a board of elders controlling the entire church. Church staff and deacons support the elders. Pastors, pastor. If Pathway's bylaws and government followed the biblical model Mike and Brad's only duties would be preaching/leading church services and prayerfully guiding the board. They would have no "power" over the board and/or church. After the bylaws, the next problem is with the board of directors. Either the board did not know that Pathways operated in a manner contrary to the biblical example, or they didn't care. Either way, they are not qualified to lead a church. What about J.J. Eaton? As said elsewhere on this blog, J.J. is indeed a nice guy, an incredibly talented musician, an awesome father/husband, and gifted leader. But J.J. is also unqualified to lead a church. J.J. has repeatedly enforced the rules and laws laid out by Mike. If you confront J.J. with the errors of his ways, he defends Mike vehemently. J.J. may have a good head for business but he has a long track record of supporting the wants and desires of Mike and Brad even if those wants contradict biblical directions. Does this make J.J. a bad person? No, it makes him a misdirected person. A misdirected leader will misdirect his followers.
Everthing you have addresses is true. I hope you will be at the meeting on the 28th and ask the board these tough questions! We CAN'T roll over and just move on as usual. God exposed Brad and his wrong doings to shake up the church....I believe that was to wake the congregation as well. We need to take a stand and call for accountability, change and a new structure to how we move forward. Mary Bough(board member) is Randersons sister.
How did Brad get his Job at Pathways? Ask Mike Randerson. Mike has a long history with the AG church. Mike is also friends with Brad's father, Larry. After Brad was kicked out of the AoG organization, Brad's dad called Mike and asked for a huge favor. Mike brought Brad in to help out at Pathways. As Mike's health declined, Brad was hired as an associate pastor on Mike's insistence; the board had very little - if any - say-so in the matter. As Mike's health further declined, Pathways was in need of a senior pastor and Brad was there. There was never a vote on the matter. There was never any search for a pastor. There was never any announcement made to the church body that Brad (or anyone) was being hired, that there was a need, that a position was open, and there never was a search for Mike's replacement. Even though Mike has not been a visible part of Pathways since Brad took over, this does not mean that Mike is out of the picture. Mike and J.J. still work together on Pathways issues. Mike is still paid by Pathways and is also on the church's health insurance plan. Could this be why J.J. is so adamant that the church financial documents be kept away from the church body? Obviously, Pathway's foundation should be the bible. After that, the church government is what everything else is built upon. Looking to one man to lead it all is NOT a biblical concept and this is where the entire foundation became a pile of sand. There are some awesome people at Pathways church. Amazing things have taken place at Pathways. Countless lives have been changed for the better because of this church. If you really want these blessed things to continue then the church needs to be rebuilt on the rock of the bible and not on the sand of man. An honest election needs to be held for a new board of directors. A new set of bylaws firmly based upon the biblical model need to be drafted. And new pastors need to be hired and vetted by the board AND the church body; "cronyism", or "nepotism" should never be allowed. Mike may have started the church with a heart full of God but Mike's church has become corrupt and has been that way since almost the beginning. Pathways deserves to soldier on and continue His work but it needs a complete "Spring cleaning" with new management from the ground up if it ever stands a chance to be a "healthy" church. Pathways will never reach it's full potential as long as the people responsible for it's problems remain in control.
Most of the above two posts about Mike the laying down of the churchs governance are NOT based on fact but an imperfect persons perception. As a former board member I can tell you we adopted the same structure as Willow Creek. We went there for training. The board had a voice. There was a governance commiteee, financial commitee and an executive committee. It was balanced and biblical. Mike was open to what we have to say and did allow the board to play out its role.
I wrote the above post based upon my knowledge and experience garnered from my position on the board. Did Mike follow Willow's example? Not according to Mike. Unfortunately, I am unable to find the email from Mike, but in it he leaves no doubt about what model he followed and it was neither Willow Creek's example nor the bible. Pathways went to Willow Creek for quite a lot things. Willow Creek is indeed a great resource. But just because Pathways availed themselves to Willow's knowledge base in no way means that Pathways actually utilized said knowledge. A perfect example is the church survey/study that Mike pushed big-time. Based upon the results of the study, Willow altered their Wednesday services and let go of staff who had been around for years. What did the study say about Pathways? It said that it's weakest link, the part people liked the least, was Mikes preaching. Did Pathways congregation ever hear about the study results? Nope. Why? Because Mike didn't like what it said. What did J.J. say about the study? He said that the study was flawed and that even Willow threw out the results. Were you on the board then? Were you on the board when a fellow board member pointed out the legal flaws in the church bylaws only to be shot down? Were you on the board during any of the number of times when the board worked to make necessary changes - for the good of the church - only to have their work tossed out because Brad and/or Mike didn't approve things first? These are actions of a single man in complete control of the church, not the board in charge of the church. Neither Willow nor the bible condone such a structure. On the outside, Pathways government appeared to be biblical. In practice, it is nothing of the sort. I left due to the boards inability to properly govern the church because of the senior pastor's constant micro-managing and usurping the boards authority. If you, being a board member, do not see this, then you are part of the problem; either you don't know/understand the biblical model or you don't care.
Thank you for your unbiased input Steve Tripp. The prior comments might have been from an imperfect person.......but aren't we all. Imperfect yes..truthful and factual.......yes.
Pathways may have started with a Willow Creek model but it strayed drastically from that model almost immediately. I know the Willow Creek model inside and out and I assure you that what we see today is nothing like it. Somewhere along the line during Mike's leadership and then Brad's leadership things changed. If in fact Mike was running the church as willow creek does then he should have never been able to appoint Brad or anyone else to be the senior pastor. Cover your butt all you want but this church is a far cry from willow creek and its model.
Do not be fooled by the "pass the buck" mentality. For many years this has be run with non-biblical by-laws and systems. What once was is no longer. Clean house and don't look back!
Has anybody heard about what is happening on the 28th. What are we doing about now and how will we move into the future? The staff is broken. Gary leaves, Lance leaves, Brad has to leave and we have only two pastors left. The board is broken. Chris Cherne stepped down, Dan Chippeaux stepped down and others stepped down prior. ONLY 4 LEFT.
Not to mention 2 of the board members served multiple years at Integrity and now Pathways- one of which was a relative to the Sr pastor: Mike Randerson (Mary Boegh). You would think that would have been a conflict of interest? Having a relative on your board while you are the Sr Pastor? But as stated earlier look at Brad and how he supported friends and family with church funds. The church sure as heck did not pick those people to support or bring on staff. Brad did. And don't even get me started on Jana, I heard she was on the payroll. For what? Being a pastor's wife? I have approached the board regarding Jana. I have not been given a dollar amount as to what she was paid. But it was confirmed she was being paid. So who else got paid and for what?
OMG!?! WHAT??? $80,000 for what? That is outrageous! I guess it does pay to keep a blind eye to your husbands secret affairs! I'm appalled. I've been working in my profession for 30 years and don't make 80 grand! In fact I work my ass off and don't make 80K. What did Jana ever do for that church? Have you ever seen her lift a finger? What the hell is going on in that church?!? This is devastating to me. I'm done.
Brad Liebe belongs in jail. What a snake. Pathways you enabled this to go on? Why? You are nothing more than a rich boys club. Who was making these decisions? This is a church! Clearly a very SICK church! If all of this health insurance, severance, salary, missions giving to support family is true...it NEEDS to END TODAY! No wonder you can't be transparent with the congregation! There is so much to hide! Why the heck was Jana given a salary? I can't fathom all of this.... This is beyond crooked. This church will never have the favor of The Lord with this kind of corruption. NEVER...
This best thing to do at this point is to declare bankruptcy and clear the books of all this money going out to support a bunch of fakes! No more paying Randerson's and Liebe's health benefits, no more severance pay, no more retirement benefits, no more house and car payments, no more giving to the missions friend club, there has to be more... NO MORE!!!! Fringe benefits are for people who deserve it, not for CRIMINALS!!! JJ Eaton you belong in jail too for fraud! You too are a snake!
- The affair with the sister in law lasted for years ... if it has even stopped ... and it was twisted.
- Go and look at our church records and see how much money was given to Chris & Kelly, Larry Liebe, Janna's parents, Kelly's parents ... and you will begin to see one of the reasons why the family kept the affair a secret for so long. (You begin to understand just how wonderful the AG is when you realize these people are all leaders in that denomination)
- If Chippeaux is gone and JJ Eaton is still in charge, this whole thing is headed in the wrong direction. Chippeaux is the only guy on that board that wanted to hold Brad accountable.
I work in the field of psychology and it has been my experience that anyone who would cheat with their own family/in-laws/brother or sister in law has had and will have multiple affairs. Brad didn't start with Kelly or end with Kelly and that would also be true for her. There are exceptions to every rule, but I am just stating a fact based on my years of experience.
If Jana was really getting paid is it no wonder she didn't do anything about the affair. On another note, This is why I don't trust the board members. How can I trust them when so many of them are friends of the Liebe's? And how can we as a church demand that a new board be put in place? Because if there is a way to make those changes, I really want to know. I would like to belong to a church that is based on true Biblical beliefs.
Here are my thoughts on the pastoral salaries we are seeing within the evangelical circles: No pastor of any church should be given a alary of 200K. Why? When salaries become that large even the best men and women of God begin to make decisions based on income and not God. The pastoral position becomes "professional" and loses its calling aspect. I do not feel we need to keep our pastors in poverty but the salary ceiling is simply too high.
No man is immune to greed. When we keep throwing money at them we simply are feeding the temptation. Pay them an honest salary with benefits but not 150K, 200K.
I know some will look at it like a business and say that a good pastor brings in people which increases giving thus he should be entitled to some of that profit. Sorry but that is in conflict with biblical principles. Pathways, we need to take a hard look at what we pay our next lead pastor. If in fact Brad was making 200K and Jana 80K we have done them and God a disservice.
*** Let me give you all some context about the salaries of a pastor. ***
I took a pastoral course in college. My instructor spent one entire class period explaining the negotiation strategies for negotiating your salary when interviewing for a church.
Here is what we were taught:
"Do not accept a $60,000 salary for yourself. Rather, counter-offer with $30,000 for both you and your wife. That way, you both can negotiate your own raises and have higher odds of earning much more over time."
It all starts in the Bible colleges, folks. I changed my major after this.
We need an outside group navigate this. It is the board versus the church at this point. How can we move forward? I'm so concerned. ther are many angry and hurt people. Also, I have heard we have joined the 6 figure club of fund abuse by Brad. Thanks again to all the AG people who lied and especially the Fort Meyers coalition. It's like the catholic church. I mad, sad, and angry.
Are you saying that Brad embezzled money from Pathways too? Is there an audit going on? Or are you referring to the outlandish salaries he and his cohort wife were making?
Should we have a petition at the meeting to ask the board to step down? I don't mean to sound mean I just to move forward and do it quickly so our church can heal and see Gods potential.
This whole scenario just gets more bazaar by the day. I would really hate to be the Liebe family and have to answer to God one day for all this sin. I understand we all sin, but these people are out of control. It's unfortunate how many lives they have affected, so many people reeling with pain and betrayal, it's heartbreaking. I wonder if the Liebe's feel any guilt? Or do they just feel bad because they got busted? I sure wouldn't want to be them and have to face myself in the mirror each day knowing how hated they all are. What a horrible burden to bare, but I guess that's the price you pay when you cheat and steal and cheat and steal and lie and lie and lie. The high can only last so long before you crash and burn.
I agree with the psychologist who commented above. It has been rumored that Brad was having multiple affairs down in Fort Myers, but no one believed he would do that to his wife. I am certain those suspicions are true. Brad has been a fake and a fraud his whole life, he just hid behind his charm, that and threatening people. He's a monster, not worthy of the monetary blessings he's been adorned with. Money is the root of all evil and he is definitely evil!
I hope to God his hey day is over for good now. I hope and pray that people won't continue enabling him. I hope that somehow he will become an honest man and apologize for reeking havoc on all of his friends and family. And get some major psychological help! I hope his children can endure the truth about their father and horrible grandfather. I hope they are able to overcome the stigma of being a Liebe and be better people that can make up for their flawed family. Brad and Larry have placed a great burden on those kids, unless they are narcissists too, like their parents, then the saga continues for another generation. Wow - what a mess!
Brad should write book about all this. It would make for a great made for TV movie! You can't make this kind of stuff up!
Pathways I'm sorry for your church but seriously you people have your heads buried in self-righteous sand. Open up your eyes and stop accepting this load of bs from your staff and board. Can't you see that everyone is out to save themselves at this point? No one is telling the truth. No one!
Brad Liebe you do belong in jail... I couldn't agree more!
Boy with all the people without jobs in the valley- 280,000 is not too shabby. Wondering what lawyers or doctors make on a starting salary? I think I missed the wrong profession? Big lake homes, expensive cars and SUV's, and nice little iPads. Man I wish I would have went to bible school. Where did Brad and Jana go to college that they were taught to take money like that? Or maybe it was just learned behaviors from family and other pastors Brad was exposed to while growing up?
North Central University. Neither one if them have a diploma. Check into it... They both went there, but apparently neither Brad nor Jana ever graduated.
This is an example of why people do not believe in God. How could a man who publically says he is a follower of Christ cheat, steal and lie over and over again. Honestly, if were unsaved i wouldn't want anything to do with church as we know it today. I see nothing appealing to it. I don't see new converts, I don't see people healed, I dont see integrity. Here is what I and the rest of the world sees. Greed, lust, power, stature, lies and a bunch of people full of hot air. Pathways, we are so far from the biblical vision that Christ had for the church. We worship men like Brad. Buildings and programs.
Lets get back to a church that feeds the hungry, clothes the nakes, loves the unloved and move away from bigger and better lights, coffee bars, sound systems, buildings and building programs. We must hold Brad and those in leadership who have let this happen accountable by removing them from leadership. It starts May 28th! DO NOT LEAVE THAT MEETING UNLESS YOUR QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED. DO NOT LET THEM OFF OF THE HOOK!!!!
I am a new believer and I'll tell you it took a long time to get me to walk in those doors for precisely these reasons! Church is a joke. I always thought that churches were filled with a bunch of hypocrites and now I see that's true. With the added bonus that it is also run by hypocrites, including the pastor! This whole thing has shaken me, I prefer to not be a part of your club anymore. It's just one big lie after another. I love Jesus, but not churches.
Have Larry Liebe & Steve Tripp lost their jobs? Did JJ Eaton get kicked off of the board for corruption? Have the Dudley's and Weis' been held accountable for their knowledge of the affair? Have Larry's presbyters been held accountable for their knowledge of the Kelly affair and money issues? Has Kelly, AG missionary, been held accountable? Are Brad or Kelly remorseful for hurting God's people? Have the two of them paid back the money for trips, jewelry, gifts, etc?
The answer to all questions: "HELL NO!"
Ministry is too important to leave in the hands of the ministers. Step up people of Pathways. The corruption ends now.
$280,000/year between the two of them(Brad and Jana)? Not a bad haul when you think about Brad's oh so humble beginnings and how his grandfather was oh so poor and didn't have two pennies to rub together(makes one wonder if his grandfather really was ever poor and what he really taught his family?)
I wonder if Jana got a severance package too???? If Brad got one, I am sure she did too....
It's humorous that we dont' know anything about severance, insurance, randersons payroll amount, whether Jana was on payroll, brads salary amount and there are so many people up in arms about it. Since when does any employer make such private information public. It's none of you business - since some people will say people are over paid and others will say they are way under paid.
What is the goal of this page. To just be a place to throw conspiracy and rumors. 'I heard all the pastors got lake cottages because the AG was targeted by Obama."
A church should have NOTHING to hide. It is NOT a business! All of that information should be available to anyone who asks for it. Transparency is the key to trust here. This is serious, not at all "humorous,"
Payroll information is indeed private information, except in the case of a church. What's the difference between a church and a business such as McDonalds? McDonalds employees don't pay upper management salaries out of their pocket. A pastors salary is paid directly buy the people he is pastoring. If you paid someone to do a job, would you seriously consider letting that person do that job without ever knowing what you are paying them??? A church of God first and foremost belongs to God. The Bible is pretty clear on how a church needs to conduct it's business and nowhere does it say that a church should be managed by a single person. The church body has the right, and responsibility, to know where the money goes. The only reason to keep a secret is because you have a secret to keep. If Pathways is not completely transparent with their finances it's because they know that there would be outrage if the congregation really knew what was going on. As far as salaries go, there is absolutely no reason why any church staff member should be earning more than the average congregant. Anything more than that average is money that should be used to help those in need and not to afford men of God Earthly luxuries. It's a matter of priority and if your priority is not God, you've a lot of praying and soul searching to do.
501c3 organizations are required to disclose salary info. It is not private information. That is since when.
Brush up on your knowledge. Here is the info:
Question: I work for a 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation. Are its financial statements available for public viewing -- especially regarding management salaries?
Answer: Indeed. Nonprofits are required to submit their financial statements and other information -- including the salaries of directors, officers, and key employees -- to the IRS. (For information on who is considered a key employee, see IRS Form 990 and its instructions.) The IRS and nonprofits themselves are required to disclose the information on Form 990 to anyone who asks. Nonprofits must allow public inspection of these records during regular business hours at their principal offices. However, many people won't even need to ask -- a number of websites make Forms 990 available for the searching, including the Foundation Center at http://fdncenter.org and GuideStar at www.guidestar.org.
In addition, people can request information from the IRS by writing a letter, including the name of the organization, the year, and the type of tax return requested, and send it to: Commissioner of Internal Revenue Attn: Freedom of Information Reading Room 1111 Constitution Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20224
I do not know if Brad or Jana got a Severance packages or not? As stated earlier you would think there would have been a morals clause in the contracts? But with the Pathways board, I highly doubt it. When this was all first told to the church I do recall something about 'pay would continue for a little while' or something to the effect that 'Brad is now gone as Sr. Pastor with a Severance package'. Jana was never mentioned as getting one. So at the church meeting it would be good to know if she was being paid and for how much. Then also what Brad was being paid and if he is getting paid now and for how much. If he and Jana are still getting paid, I guess my question would be: WHY?
And while we are talking about pay, it would also be nice to know if Mike Randerson is still being paid as well? I have heard hints that he is still being paid or getting health benefits? Anyone know if that is true or why we still would support him?
If you are going to the meeting on May 28th that "they" have organized, planned for, and invited you to, "they" are already in charge.
By "they", of course I mean JJ Eaton and his merry band of gullible followers he calls a board. Chippeaux was the only independent thinker amongst them and now he is gone.
My point is this - JJ Eaton has already been talking to lawyers paid for by "you". Thanks for the tithe money! These are the same lawyers, also paid for by "you", that he used to keep the Kelly Dudley affair hush hush for so long. He is ready for "you" at his meeting. He will act like he is playing nice, but the bottom line is to squelch this little rebellion of yours. He needs your mouths shut and your pocket books open.
I would suggest getting a copy of the by-laws, a lawyer of your own, and having a meeting before the May 28th meeting. That way, at least you are prepared on May 28.
Otherwise, JJ is just going to let you get a few things off of your chest and then spin you into submission.
What is the only thing worse than Brad and Kelly screwing each other for years and stealing money? The answer is simply all of those that enabled them and didn't speak up. We could go through the list which includes the likes of Larry Liebe, Steve Tripp, etc... but as far as Pathways is concerned, JJ Eaton is at the top of that list.
If I were a staff member at this church, pastor or otherwise, I would be looking for another position eagerly. Any person with integrity simply can't stay on if JJ Eaton is in charge. I understand wanting to stay for the people in hopes if correcting things, but that simply is not possible if the same people are left to run the church.
Everybody states that JJ Eaton needs to go, but how can that happen. It appears he has his position "locked" in. How could he be removed from the board? Does anybody know?
If he doesn't leave, then you have no choice but to leave. You can't stay and choose to be a part of the corruption. Staying enables him to continue manipulating people and you will find yourselves in a similar situation down the road. Your choice.
Leave him locked in!! Let him have it! Let him take care of the bills and what monies he owes past pastors. He will be in charge and I'm sure he will do very well.
We have to rise up and demand his resignation. Hopefully he will admit his mistakes and resign willingly. I know he has asked others on the board if he should step down and they have told him no- he created this pile of doo doo and now he can clean it up and not dump it onto others. However the 28th must be his last day.
Ministry leaders: Brad Liebe, Kelly Dudley, Larry Liebe: -abuse -narcissism -multiple affairs -lies -cover up -embezzlement -sexual perversion -targeting and taking down God's churches -pissing on the faith of well meaning believers. -lack of remorse -abuse of power
Christianity had a bad enough reputation before the likes of this ministry family.
Ok, so everyone that wants to know about the church meeting..... If you haven't been to a service lately, the Pastors are asking you to right your questions on an in touch card or email your questions to info@pathways.org. That is the only way you will have a voice. I don't believe there will be any back and forth dialogue. They will be answering questions. I don't think one meeting will be enough to address all the issues and how they answer will be a good indicator as to whether we continue to attend. It will be interesting to see if there is another meeting planned or if they think they did their part (the board) and just move on. From everything I've read in this blog, there are some very serious problems. They start and end with the people making the decisions, and it seems like we can't hold them accountable for anything. They say they want to be transparent, but they aren't, if they were, we wouldn't need this meeting. Too much has gone on for too long, and we do need to be asking the hard questions! So... go to church and fill out the cards, or email the church with your questions, then BE THERE.
We have to focus on moving forward beginning with the meeting on the 28th. The rest is just fodder for the enemy. 1) Current leadership must be held accountable for their cover up. The must own their mistakes and apologize so healing can begin. 2) Those leaders must be removed from their positions as of the 28th. 3) Decisions must be made as to how to approach the leadership gap so the church can function. I would suggest a vote that night. 4) A strategy to gain the trust of the people must be discussed and put in place. 5) Current staff must be included in this process. 6) We should all be praying and demonstrating that even in our frustration we exhibit the fruit of the spirit.
It' s that simple folks! As Pathways that is our role. The AG is doing their own investigation into coverup and the sin of omission. Justice may finally be coming!
Unless Pathways holds an open forum/town hall type of meeting, you will only hear what they want you to hear. No matter what questions are asked, or how many times those questions get submitted, the board is in complete control and do everything in their power to keep it that way. Their main goal right now is to smooth things over and regain your trust. If the past is any indication of future events (and it almost always is) the meeting on the 28th will be full of double talk, evasive speeches, and canned answers.
If you honestly believe that the AoG has any say-so into what happens at Pathways then you need to run away as fast as you can while taking as many people with you as possible. Pathways is a non-denominational church and unaffiliated with the AoG. The AoG has absolutely no jurisdiction over Pathways. If they do, then there was a lot more going on behind the scenes than they ever let on. Why in the world would any organization quietly make a move into a non-denominational church? The answer can only lay behind dollar signs.
If you want answers, if you want Pathways to be healed, if you want the church to be firmly built upon rock, then go to your bible. If Pathways takes any path other than the one outlined in scripture, then it's an unhealthy church. As long as current leadership is in charge, they will continue to do what they have always done. As long as leadership term limits do not exist there will always be corruption as power and ego grow the longer someone is in that position. As long as you trust the people who got you into this mess to get you out, you will always be misled.
You think the AG is doing an investigation? By who? Larry and Steve are the top dogs. The AG brass in Wisconsin are like Teflon. Nothing sticks!!! A few years ago the WI AG had an official busted for solicitation of a prostitute and guess what happened to him? Virtually nothing.
I agree that the focus needs to be on the leadership of Pathways. You can't help fix the WI AG they don’t know right from wrong, truth from fiction.
Stay the course Pathways and get your current leadership out and VOTE in new men and women with terms.
Part of your statement is out of ignorance. The official you are referencing was not guilty of solicitation, yet was thrown under the bus by his colleagues and lost more than you apparently know.
If you don't know truth about what you are talking about, then all you are doing is spreading rumors and gossip.
PATHWAYS: If you were in church this past weekend you will see there are 3 people being considered for the board at Pathways. I have no clue who the 3 are? I don't know if they are friends of the board or how they got picked or by whom? I have been going to Pathways now for 5 years and I thought I knew pretty much everyone in that church. Wrong. And do you think the church board would have put these people's background information in the bulletin so we know who these people are and what their backgrounds are or what they even bring to the table?
What I can tell you is this: the same bs that has gone on in the past is still going on. There is not going to be a vote as to these new members. They will be let on by the board members themselves.
If you are sick and tired of the same old crap- now is your time to voice your dissatisfaction. I have and I suggest you all do the same. I have called the church and emailed some of the board members (AGAIN).
If you are not happy with the current performance of any of your current board members or how people are going to be selected going forward I would encourage you to call the church office and express your frustrations. They say they are listening. That things are transparent. It can't hurt to find out why things still have not changed and why people that consider Pathways it's home have NO voice yet.
If you don't want to call the office you can email the board members. I think JJ's email address was even in the church bulletin. Or you can go to Pathways website and get the board members email addresses there.
I have decided my family will worship elsewhere. There are plenty of good churches in he valley that really do operate biblically. I am tired of being told 'How things are going to be' And that I need to Trust leadership with my tithe'. I have a lot of people I call my friend at Pathways. I guess I will just have to make new friends elsewhere.
You have a right to be angry but don't give up until after the meeting on the 28th. Come, participate, help things be made right. If they choose not to respond in a way to gain trust then leave. Until then hang in there with the rest of us. I am beleiving for a new day to come soon!
I am on the worship team and I am having a very difficult time staying on it. I am planning on staying until the 28th but at this point my faith in any church system (not God - as I believe in Him 100%) is gone.
I'm there too! Bless everyone that has been affected deeply. Find your hope and trust in the Rock our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! All else is shifting sand....
April 28 views were 35,236. May 21 views 49,709 which works out to 539 views per day and an average of 10 posts per day. All I can is WOW, the board better get it right May 28. Sad for Pathways if they have most people leave without answers and future direction.
As one of those rejected to serve on the "selection" committee, my guess is that it will be carefully composed of 'yes men' who won't challenge or question the agenda in place, or the faulty procedure that got us in this mess in the first place.
I am so sick and saddened by this. I sure hope someone says something If I am off of work I will be bringing all these questions to the "board" if they do not allow me to speak or they pick and choose what to answer I say we picket the church before every service to spread the truth! The staff at pathways is dismissive,secretive and shady if you ask me. Lance leaving, Gary gone, we paid Jana Liebe? for what? I am so sad that this much corruption happened. I saw the end of year budget for last year and they put 250,000 on furniture? Do you know how many meals a QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS would buy for hungry people in Appleton???
$250,000 for furniture? I don't see where it is. I'd like to see the receipts for what they bought or the depreciation schedule. Is that furniture even there or is it at someone else's house?
I was rejected as well. Knwoing those who qualified- leadership gifts, the gift of discernment were not pre-requisites. We need to look at this team and hear at the meeting why they qualified!!!
Wow - $250,000 on furniture? Must have been for personal use because I go to church every week and haven't seen anything new - at least not worth that much. What I don't understand is how some members are just willing to overlook EVERYTHING and are just content to wait and see what happens. I for one will no longer follow blindly along. My spiritual life means more to me than that.
You can nearly bet your life on it that the $250,000 of furniture is in one of Brad's houses! This is exactly what he did in Florida. Why should we assume differently? He no longer qualifies for the "benefit of doubt." So in addition to making $280,000 in salary, Brad and Jana had to embezzle furniture!?! What else? What else has this church provided them? If we could get a hold of a list if line item budget items, I think heads would roll.
I agree that our spiritual life does mean more than trusting these wolves blindly. Why should we? Why would we when there are so many other great places to worship in the area. Pathways is not the end all, be all. It is not worth it to me at all. How are we ever suppose to trust anyone ever again?
Has anyone considered writing a well-crafted letter to be published in the Appleton Post Crescent, Letters to the Editor section? Brad Liebe, Larry Liebe, JJ Eaton and Steve Tripp need to be called out by name and held accountable for their criminal, immoral and fraudulent behavior. This may be the only way to get the word out to the public in a civil manner, in order to protect the innocent people of the Valley from being fleeced by these awful men in the future. 50,000 views on this blog is a clear indication that people are searching for the truth and are desperately in need of seeing these wolves held accountable for their actions.
Honestly I am shocked at all of Pathways - everyone there - employees, staff, board - anyone that knew of these problems and did little or nothing. So unGodly.
My daughter wept during the service when it was announced. She is still upset and very skeptical of Church now. I believe her faith is still ok, but organized religion is what she is questioning.
She has had to face more difficulties than most and will all of her life. Pathways is the only Church she knew. We are looking at other Churches now.
There is NOTHING more important than a person's faith. These people are supposed to be the leaders - Gods leaders.
My GOD, we're talking about peoples SALVATION here!!!!
But keeping a fast talker is more important? Is the devil in charge there?
I'm just sickened by it. I pray that all involved ask for forgiveness and fix what they have done. Drive the evil out - Now.
How can the board be functioning??? They need 6 according to the by-laws to function. They only have four left. They have anounced four new candidates I've never heard of who can become members if no one objects after 30 days but unitl then???? Did Brad nominated these men? This is a serious breach!
Clearly credentials do not matter when it comes to church. Non-denominational or AG; what do those credentials really mean if no one enforces them?! Assembly of God is a ridiculous religion... I've never in all my life witnessed such complete disregard of peoples salvation in pursuit of tithe, giving and money of any kind.
My family tithes a full 10% of our pay. We will start to hold the money until a full budget is released to the church. This is our (church members) money they are wasting. If everyone holds their tithes until a a full budget is released they will have to see our point.
We are tithing to things that are really making a difference in the fox valley. We will no longer support such craziness anymore.....or pad the pockets of liars.
It is becoming more and more clear that this is the only power that anyone in the congregation at Pathways has. Money seems to be the only voice that the people have. Quite frankly I can't understand why anyone would willingly associate themselves with such a corrupt organization after having knowledge that their organizational structure does not follow Biblical principles (with the fruit of this resulting in a wolf such as Brad Liebe leading their flock). I would urge caution to anyone who continues to support the current leadership. Please understand that the type of people that would use a church for their own personal gain are not the type of people that will be transparent or would ever change their behavior (which wouldn't matter even if they did change because by default they disqualified themselves from leadership from their actions in the first place).
My family has helped others at Pathways. Single moms that really struggle. One in particular is battling major health issues while raising kids.
They said they struggle mightily, but continued to give to Pathways.
They end up missing some meds because of cost, missing meals, beg for money and rides to and from doctors appointments. Their kids are their biggest concern.
How, How, How can the board have done this and not helped the most needy?
But brad can have what he wants - bmw's, suv,s, beautiful second home on a lake, beautiful boat, and on and on.
I have NO idea how anyone can continue to support or even work for or at this place with what went on unchecked.
Simply horrifying! Not Gods idea of Church.
Gods Church is to help the most vulnerable - not to line anyone's pockets.
It os SO simple: Matthew 25:40
whatever you did unto one of the least, you did unto me
Salaries are out of control, buildings have become monuments to the pastors who erect them. Furnishings are top of the line. Jewelry watches diamonds. This is not what was intended for the church.
Credentials are worthless as long as there are organizations that will print you a membership card for a simple up front payment. Find a pastor who actually has earned a degree from an accredited university and you will find credentials that may mean something. Brad Liebe never finished college which makes me wonder why the AG would credential him in the first place.
If you don't mind your money being wasted on things then you should consider giving me your tithe. I can spend it just as carelessly as Brad and I certainly will appreciate it more
Ouch, remember the tithe belongs to the storehouse and that the perpetrator is gone. The other pastors are counting on us. The ministry of the church are still very important. I know its hard. I do realize I give to God and what men do with it is their choice and not my responsibility.
What on earth can you possibly mean, "It is not my responsibility?!?!" You are required by God to show discernment and wisdom and sound judgment based on Biblical principles! You are required to be a good steward of your resources. If you think you can in any way please God by giving your money to an organization that you know is wasteful,deceitful, and corrupt, then you, my friend, have been deceived.
It's getting to the point that I am starting to agree with my husband that all "organized religion" is a scam. Maybe I don't need a church after all - I can pray anywhere I want and it doesn't have to be in a building.
The tithe belongs to the storehouse..... I've heard that said about a million times before. Always by a "pastor" by the way. They teach them to use this phrase in Bible college. They're also teaching them these days how to have a church without a real Board or Council of any kind and where the "flock" has absolutely no input into anything. The "Boards" we see today are a scam; just a bunch of "yes" men who are in real tight with the pastor. Watch and see. That's how it is in most modern churches now. Very different from the past.
If you're in a church where the pastor is telling you to tithe then you need to get up and run out of the place. The single fact that a pastor is teaching you about the "rule of tithing" proves that he either doesn't know/understand the Bible or that he's after your money. Be smart, look it up yourself. Tithing was for the Levitical priests. You can read up about it at web sites like gotquestions.org. If a pastor is deceiving you about tithing, what else might they be wrong about?
what about luke 11:42 is pretty clear that Jesus said we should tithe. I almost thought as you. Satan would love us to control our money. Giving to a church that squanders money on sinful pastors is wrong and hopefully the truth will come out at the meeting as to what happened. But it is hard for me to stop trusting god by giving because I know there are a lot of good things going on at pathways. I would hate to see one mans sin ruin the hope of thousands. The only alternative to organized religion is unorganized, and then it usually becomes organized. By this I mean we are told to gather, if it is in a house , a building wherever. jesus will be in midst, but so will people. So there will never be a perfect gathering because we are not totally perfect yet. This desnt mean we over look sin, but it does mean we don't disobey the Lord.
In addition if you're in a church where the pastor's spouse is on salary - RUN! That is the biggest joke I've ever heard! Unless that spouse has a license to preach or is one of the church secretaries there is really no reason to be given a salary of any kind, esspecially an $80,000 one! Church is about volunteering and giving if your time and talent, not money!
You need to be aware that you have been taught that the more you give to the church, the more God loves you. Nothing could be further than the truth. Your pass into heaven IS NOT based on your tithing/giving! You have been guilted into giving constantly. Brad mastered that skill when he was at First Assembly of Fort Myers. Pastor Betzer is known for that kind of "teaching."
Giving to missions and tithing more than 10% is not required. If a church can't get a functioning budget together with 10% of ALL of your salaries, then they have a poor leader and a bad accountant.
Stop feeling shame and guilt!!! The Pathways leadership is using YOU! Give to food shelters. Give to homeless shelters. Give to the Humane Society! Anyplace is better than giving to a crooked church!
Your pass into heaven has everything to do with your heart and how you show your love for Jesus in goodwill and kindness to others. It has nothing to do with giving.
This is long, but well worth you time to read! It will be posted in several parts. Please reference http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html for the full article.
Part 1: How Pastors Get Rich
This article exposes the secret methods certain pastors use to get rich off God’s people. Have you ever wondered how some pastors start a church and then become wealthy living in flash houses and driving luxury cars? Well this article exposes how they do it, extracting money from their congregations to fund their lifestyles.
Here exposed are the secret techniques used to fleece money from God’s people. Don’t be naive thinking that these schemes have spread throughout the world by accident. These techniques are talked about and shared behind closed doors by the clique of pastors who employ them. I would not like to be in their shoes when they finally meet our Lord, or for that matter anywhere within the blast radius.
It’s big business. Some of them laugh at us like con-men laughing at their marks. Seriously, if you don’t believe that there are men like that, then watch the 1972 documentary Marjoe. You’ll soon realize that these wolfs in sheep’s clothing have been a blight on Christianity throughout its history.
First let’s discover the primary pattern behind their methods…
The Multilevel Marketing Pattern
We’ve all been approached at some time by a friend caught up in the hope of multilevel marketing. The business they are pushing is simple, sell toothpaste or web sites or whatever, and then recruit people under you doing the same, taking a cut from their sales. Soon you will be so rich that you can buy a flash European car and give stacks of money to Godly causes.
That is the dream. The proof the dream works is embodied in the wealth of the dream’s leaders. They made all their money by following the dream, proving that you can too. Except, that it’s a lie.
These leaders did not become wealthy by following the dream, instead they became wealthy by building up a group of people who believe passionately in the dream, and then selling dream-promoting wares to this captive audience.
I will say it again, because you need to understand this pattern. They did not become rich by selling toothpaste; they became rich by hyping dream-promoting books, tapes, DVDs, and conferences to their own private market of dream believers.
This same pattern is practiced by some Christian leaders and their churches. The dream is the prosperity gospel. Their captive market is their congregation. The products are, well you guessed it, most ominously spiritual rewards and the prevention of spiritual punishments.
You are about to discover how these spiritual vampires feed…
Tip: A clue that you are caught up in one of these churches is if you hear things like, “This is your spiritual home, you can’t go to another church. You must be loyal.” They are very jealous about protecting their market, and do not want to lose one of their paying customers to another church. Some even try to prevent their patrons leaving by making them sign contracts or “covenants”, like a mobile phone company locking you into a two year term. But the Bible does not teach that Christians are bound to their local church organization, this idea is foreign to Scripture. cont...
The hype for these conferences start months before hand. Other church members look at you strangely if you are thinking about not going. What, you can’t afford the huge entry fee? What’s wrong with you, don’t you love God? Don’t you want to be blessed? Don’t you want to be successful and wealthy? Don’t you want to be part of us? Because you won’t be, unless you go to THE CONFERENCE!
Each speaker is completely amazing. The next best thing to the second coming.
He’s built a church up from nothing to one with thousands of people. She’s the most Godly woman in the universe who is the best wife ever with the best kids and the best lifestyle, and she’s the pastor’s wife too. He’s from overseas. She’s a corporate CEO. Wow. It’s going to be awesome. It’s going to be triple awesome! It’s going to be mega massive triply awesomely awesome!
The spiritual reward for going is implied to be life changing. The conference fee is nothing, compared to the fire-fighting-bomber worth of blessings and wealth God will dump on your head from upon high.
And Jesus had conferences too, don’t forget, like the Sermon on the Mount, where He charged, oh, he didn’t charge anything for that spiritual teaching. In fact it was free wasn’t it? Hmmm. Well, often the first-movers can’t figure out how to monetize their success, we can’t blame Jesus for that, can we? Gosh, if only He had some books to sell at the back…
Your Counter Strategy: Hire a hotel room, and sit there reading your Bible with a few Christian friends – trust me, spiritually you’ll get more out of it and it’ll cost less. Realize that you don’t need the sugar high of a conference to get closer to God. De-program yourself from the idea that conferences are like a spiritual hot-point you just have to be at. See the hype for what it is. Be led by the Spirit to conferences, not pulled by the fear of losing your church friends and God’s blessing.
Don’t go to these conferences! Demand transparent accounting to the whole church of all costs of visiting speakers, and for that matter transparency about any income your pastor is earning while speaking at other churches and conferences. No pastor earning reasonable fees from away engagements would have a problem with this.
The Honor The Pastor Scam
Money focused churches tend to be run on cultic patterns. One of these cultic patterns is the division of the church into exclusive rings: the all-powerful pastor perched at the center, the inner-ring of staff around him consisting of the pastor’s lieutenants and the church’s privileged class (the rich, the famous and the very pretty), and the outer-ring of the ordinary folk who would love to be in the inner-ring, but are not. (Sound familiar?)
The power of those in the inner-ring is determined by the amount of favor the pastor bestows upon them.
To get more favor the inner-ring will employ many favor-currying measures, one of which is a scam called “Honoring the Pastor”. It works this way, the inner-ring will figure out what the pastor would like, say for his birthday. Then the inner-ringers will squeeze the outer-ringers for the money to buy this item.
Using this method pastors have been “given”: diamond rings for their wives, cash gifts, jet skis, luxury cruises, motorbikes, cars, holidays, boats, and a myriad of other expensive luxury items. Of course they could refuse the gift when it is presented, and make it clear that they don’t want the Lord’s money spent on such things again, but they never do.
Your Counter Strategy: Unless it’s something reasonable like a bunch of flowers for the pastor’s wife, don’t give to this sort of fund raising. cont...
Another way the pastor uses his inner-ring to extract cash, is via high pressure offering talks in the church services.
One of the church’s inner-ring will take the Sunday offering, which in these money focused churches can turn into a mini-sermon. These inner-ring members are competing against each other’s past high scores. At stake is their standing with the pastor and hence their standing in the church. If they rake in the cash then their position is secure, but if they score low then no matter what excuses they have they know the pastor will blame them.
In the extreme money focused churches it is made known who gave the most and who gave the least, and in these churches the giving will not be in secret but people will be expected to come up the front so that everyone can see how much they give. Or people will be watched to see if they put anything in the offering container as it is passed down the aisles.
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. – 2 Corinthians 9:7
Your Counter Strategy: If you feel you are being compelled to give then don’t give a penny, no matter how much pressure is applied.
Cathedral Building Wars
Like the cathedral building wars in the middle ages where cities and countries vied against each other to build the most impressive cathedral. The pastors of these money focused churches fight to own the most impressive church to top their rival pastors – their egos demand that they are the king of the heap.
The most impressive churches require the most magnificent buildings, the most professional entertainment in their services, the best church programs, and the best conferences, the best websites, the best radio and TV programs, and the most members. All this costs a lot of money.
And just like in the days of old these self anointed church kings seek to tax their subjects to fund their private war.
Understand that these cultic churches ultimately exist to serve their pastor’s insecure egos, and their congregation suffer under their madness. This type of church culture breeds a harsh environment where people are discarded as soon as they are no longer useful. This is a dysfunctional ethos entirely alien to that of Jesus’s teachings.
Your Counter Strategy: Don’t help fund these monuments to the pastor’s pride and prestige, these pet projects, these grandiose visions. Realize that these churches are not focused on Jesus, but are centered around the narcissistic pastor and what he desires most. Don’t be part of this game. Surely we are accountable to God to how we spend our money. Surely then it is our duty as Christians to give that money to true Godly works that bear real fruit for the Kingdom. cont...
The Bible teaches that the spiritual worker deserves to be paid:
I believe it is reasonable to assume that Paul the Apostle meant only fair wages, not excessive wages, and that Paul would have agreed with what Peter the Apostle wrote: To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. – 1 Peter 5:1-3
Obviously one of the ways greedy pastors can extract money from God’s people is via excessive wages. The amount of which they will often decide themselves, or have conferred on them by their inner-circle (via the church board, or the church wages review committee, for example).
No honest pastor would have a problem with his congregation knowing how much their church pays him, or at least what range his wage fell in, like say “between $50,000 and $60,000″. This is normal. Openness regarding the pastor’s stipend has been a practice of the Christian church for hundreds of years, and continues today. Only those pastors who have an excessive wage would be reluctant to let the amount become public knowledge.
If your pastor refuses to be open about his wage then be very suspicious. It is likely he knows that the amount would be considered excessive. If it is excessive, then watch him dodge the issue like a sweaty politician.
Be even more suspicious whenever you hear a pastor’s wage being justified by comparing him to a CEO. If you hear this CEO nonsense then you can instantly know two things: first, the pastor’s wage is massive; second, you are being scammed. A pastor is not a CEO no matter how big his church empire is; a CEO runs a for monetary-profit organization, a pastors serves the people of God – they are not the same thing.
By the way, if the pastor claims to be a CEO, then you must be a shareholder. Shareholders have full rights to the accounts, including how much their “CEO” is earning.
Your Counter Strategy: Find out how much your pastor is paid. If he will not reveal the information then stop giving to that church until it is revealed. Especially stop if you hear any of this “CEO” rubbish.
Perks
Expensive leased cars, holidays, clothing allowances, spending money, restaurant meals, hotels, flights, and expense accounts, are some of the perks demanded by these luxury smitten pastors.
Some say that if they are preaching the “prosperity gospel”, then they have to appear prosperous to “walk their talk”. But of course that is a deception. They are using God’s money to misrepresent how wealthy they are, to help prove their false teaching works. Despicable.
Your Counter Strategy: Stop giving money in protest, until the excessive perks are removed.
Nepotism (A family favorite!)
A church isn’t a family business you know; it is a family, but it’s not a business.
Are the pastor’s relatives high up in the church? Are they the ones with the most powerful positions? Then that is nepotism. A good church will choose the very best people for the job, while a bad church will reward those closest to the pastor with the lucrative positions of power.
If you see nepotism, then that is a sign that something is very wrong.
Your Counter Strategy: Yup, you guessed it – stop giving to that church until the pastor’s little family fiefdom is disassembled. cont...
This is the big daddy. This is their sacred cow. This is the beating heart of their evil empire. The crown jewel. The Death Star. The one ring to bill them all. The pot of gold. Their matrix (into which they want to plug you). Their Wizard of Oz. Their magic spell. Their special power. Their secret recipe with the eleven herbs and spices. Their Golden Goose. The very air upon which they breathe!
Question this doctrine and watch these money hungry pastors bare their fangs. This is a teaching that they will bear no compromise on. Tithing, or at least their own version of tithing, is their one true love.
Here are some bullet points about tithing that these money hungry pastors don’t want you to know:
The New Testament Church did not tithe. The New Testament does not teach tithing for Christians. Their favorite Malachi verses cannot be used for Christians since Christians are not under the law of Moses. Abraham’s one off tithe of his war booty did not set up a precedent for Christians to regularly tithe their income. The version of tithing they teach cannot be found in Scripture (see below). The “Storehouse” in Malachi cannot be equated to your local church organization. There are plenty of rich (money wise) Christians who do not tithe. This would be impossible if their version of tithing was true. The New Testament teaching is that you decide how much to give, and there are no rules about where it goes. You cannot be compelled to give. It may come as a surprise to learn that their tithing doctrine is a combination of twisted scriptures and wishful thinking, as opposed to solid Biblical exegesis reflecting a central thrust of New Testament teaching. Here is their tithing doctrine stated in a nutshell:
“Christians must give ten percent of their gross income only to their church organization. If they do, then God will bless them for any offerings they make to the church organization beyond this ten percent. But if they do not give ten percent gross, then they are stealing from God and God will curse them.”
There are variations of this teaching, and sometimes it is called a “principle”, but the above definition contains the core essence of this doctrine.
It is vital to grasp that tithing is not for Christians. Tithing was part of the old law (of Moses) which was fulfilled (completed) by Jesus. You know that Christians are not under the law of Moses don’t you?
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. – Romans 7:6
What is more, this tithing doctrine they teach isn’t found in either the New or Old Testament. Tithing in the old testament does not match what these pastors preach – this unique tithe teaching is of their own invention.
This is such an important subject that Cultwatch has a special website TithingDebate.com dedicated to setting Christians free from this fake doctrine. There are free books to download and articles to read. Make sure you read our article “Should you give? New Testament Giving Supported!”, because Cultwatch is not anti-giving. If you think tithing is for Christians today, then you need to read TithingDebate.com cont....
Tip: If you are struggling to feed your family or buy them clothes, then understand that you do not need to give to the church. You can still do so if you choose, but you should not feel under compulsion since your family is more important. Also understand that if you are poor then that does not mean God is cursing you, or that you have done something wrong; this is an erroneous teaching these greedy men promote to guilt you into giving. Remember, your duty is to your family first. If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. – 1 Timothy 5:8
Tip: Churches that push this erroneous tithing doctrine will often try to enforce tithing via written agreements (called covenants), and also by monitoring what people give (so they can compel them to give more if they are not meeting the ten percent target). First, grasp that these “covenants” are illegitimate and not worth the paper they are printed on, because they contain false doctrine (like tithing) and set up the pastors as a false authority over you. God would not be party to a covenant that contains falsehoods, therefore God was not party to the covenant you were pressured to sign, therefore you are free from this burden. It is as if you never signed it. Second, recording what you give and using that information to pressure you to give more is wrong, the Bible implies that our giving is best done in secret so that only we and God know what we gave. Don’t go to a church where they monitor what you give. (note: some churches voluntarily let you record what you have given via a numbered envelope system for tax purposes. Done correctly, no one in the church will know what you gave. There is nothing wrong with this kind of recording.)
Your Counter Strategy: Stop giving to that church until they change their ways. That doesn’t mean to stop giving to Godly works, we would encourage you to give as the Holy Spirit prompts you and as you decide. But it is valid to protest false doctrine by refusing to fund the system that promotes that false doctrine.
In these pastor’s prosperity teaching, obeying the pastor and giving money are the two pillars necessary for a successful Christian life. If you sit back and think about it, you will quickly see what a con it is.
These men want to be at the head of everything, they want to dominate you, they want to be seen as the big man, and some even secretly desire adoration (almost worship). This is the opposite of true Christian leadership:
Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. – Mark 10:42-44
Threatening people with curses if they do not obey or donate is spiritual extortion. It is contrary to the nature of grace and the person of Jesus.
Your Counter Strategy: Don’t be afraid of these men. Ignore their bluster. Grow a backbone and stand up to them. And if you give, then give to honor God and not out of fear of punishment or greed for financial gain. Memorize this verse: Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. – 2 Corinthians 9:7 cont...
I believe many church goers would be shocked if they could comprehend the real attitude their pastor has towards them. From my experience with both the cults and these money focused churches, it is my impression that instead of being looked upon with love, these pastors see their congregation as farm animals to be milked.
It is my prayer that this article will set you free from this kind of spiritual bondage. I hope now you will be able to spot this counterfeit Christian life and be able to transition into a closer walk with Jesus; a walk built on love, trust and grace, not fear.
Realize that a number of churches follow the patterns that this article exposes. However there are many good churches who do not practice these methods. If you have been hurt by these practices then feel free to give up on these twisted money-focused environments, but please do not give up on Jesus.
Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. – 2 Corinthians 2:17. Therefore, can we conclude that men who peddle the word of God for profit are not sent from God?
Excerpts from this article have been taken from: http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html Go here to see the full article.
There was information given about Brads long term affair with his sister in law - details about the money he had ripped off in Florida and was continuing to rip off at Pathways - and the suspicion of current extra marital affairs that were taking place now and needed to be investigated. This information came from a very credible source and was given to or fell in the hands of:
Jim Bradford - Executive leader in the AG Larry Liebe and his Presbyters. Pathways Board. Several Pathways staff members and AG Wisc District staffers.
Also, this information was first given to Brad so that he could do the right thing. He ran and hid like a school girl.
As for the others.
Jim Bradford did nothing because he was afraid that Brad would sue the AG. Larry Liebe tried to get the AG ministry papers pulled from the person that gave the information. JJ Eaton sent a very threatening letter from Pathways lawyers that threatened legal action. Everyone else was silent.
Not one of these people except for Jim Bradford picked up the phone and talked to this person with the information.
That said, if these people are not honest with their constituents and release the information -- including the letter from JJ Eaton -- it will be released on the internet soon.
Personally I think it's time to make Brad sweat a little. Put the pressure on him by making your information public. Quite honestly I don't understand what's preventing you? If you have proof of stealing or embezzling and you don't turn it over to the proper authorities, you are equally as guilty as all the other shysters involved. It is time this nonsense ends. Put an end to Pastor Liebe's criminal behavior by making him accountable for the consequences of his actions! Get FBI involved if the IRS won't do anything. Make him sweat!!!
Brad is not an AG credential holder. He is not subject to the Constitution and By-laws of the AG. The Wisc AG has no authority over him. Pathways is not an AG church. Leave the AG out of this.
Leave the AG out of it??? YOU created this monster at North Central Bible College! Larry Liebe, who IS a AG CREDENTIALED holder, got Brad the job at Pathways knowing his embezzlement past AND helped to keep things quiet when the adultery charges quiet!!! ALSO, Roland Dudley and Paul Weis are AG CREDENTIALED PASTORS, AND they too kept things quiet. NONE of these AG CREDENTIALED leaders stepped up to put an end to Brad Liebe's vial reign as pastor of Pathways. In ADDITION, several other AG CREDENTIALED PASTORS and presbyters were notified of the Brad situation and NONE of them stepped up either!!! Not to mention that Steve Tripp is also an AG CREDENTIALED PASTOR and was on Pathways board and works at the WI AG District Office. OH YES... and let's not forget who Brad learned all of this from... none other than Dan Betzer, another AG CREDENTIALED PASTOR. Seems several of your AG credentialed pastors are corrupt, not just Brad! DOES THAT CONCERN YOU????? IDIOT!
Tithing in the New Testament church is unbiblical and unnecessary. Giving voluntarily is, of course, biblical but tithing per se anymore is not. It was a part of the old testament law/covenant. Here's a great article explaining this:
What are you waiting for?? Release the truth already! Turn your papers over to the D.A. Let them investigate. If Brad stole money again, it's time to put him in jail. He'll do it again if you don't!
LOL ... not only did Larry Liebe have the nerve to try and pull the AG creditionals of the person that had information on his son ... he demanded an apology to his wife from this guy. Needless to say, no apology was given to these horrible people.
The arrogance of these people. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree!
If Larry, JJ Eaton, and the Board and staff of Pathways don't come clean soon, they will read all of their emails online.
Total side note. Just want to ask an obvious question.
Who screws their own brother or sister in law. EEEEEWWWWHHHH!!!!! And how clueless are the spouses to not notice this happening right under their nose.
After all, it wasn't a one time thing. This was a LONG TERM AFFAIR.
Who are these people?
And to think ......... they are your ministry leaders?!?!
I have a friend on staff at Pathways that had access to some of the information about what went on between Brad and Kelly (his sister in law). It made me sick to my stomach. It was perverted. To think that all of their parents knew and did nothing- Dudley, Weis, Liebe - this also turns my stomach. To think that the AG knew and still let Pathways be pastored by a wolf also turns my stomach.
You people please just leave ministry. Apologize! Repent! Please don't let another soul be lost because of what you done or covered up!!!
Brad Liebe and Kelly Dudley are used by Satan to tear apart God's special work. They do it in the name of God. They do it under the disguise of religion. They do it under the umbrella of religious parents with high level ministry positions. But it is still evil. And it needs to stop right now!
They look spiritual. They sound spiritual. But look at what they have done.
They both kill that which is spiritual. Meanwhile their spouses don't pay attention. They are also religious but must maintain a loveless marriage for the sake of keeping ministry positions. Their parents turn away because to reveal the truth would also hurt their ministry careers.
A very intriguing guy once said "The truth will set you free".
Time for these people to be exposed for what they are. Time for them to stop playing church. God's people deserve better.
The comments section on this page is filling up again already. Please post your comments on the new page starting now. Spiritual Wisdom is Good - Part 5. Here's the link:
Brad Liebe is back in Ft. Myers with a new business. KK and B Financial Services for Seniors. Just Google the above to get his web site. You must call or email the insurance commissioner for the state of Florida and file a complaint. He can not be allowed to take advantage of anyone else.
OK, I just tried this link (above) and it took me right to the proper page for Part 5. So.....please post all your comments on this new page as of now. Here's the link again:
If you live in the Valley and you want to know what is happening..........GO TO THE SERVICE. For those of you in Ft. Myers it is time to get over whatever happened there.
ReplyDeleteI'm from here and its a bit rude for you to tell people from there to get over it.
DeleteEasy for you to say. Let's see what the people of Pathways have to say about it all 3 years from now. I'm willing to bet there will still be many discouraged, hurting people still talking about what happened there. That's just the way it is. So I guess only you people in the "valley" have the right to be upset?? I can't fathom any reasons to "GO TO THE SERVICE" there anymore either. The place is a mess. This is not something that one "gets over" all that easily. It has destroyed many lives. Since you are so obviously "over it" you can quit making comments here. Nobody needs to hear from you anymore.
ReplyDeleteAGREED!!!!
DeleteWha Wha Wha. Tired of being a victim yet? I love pathways church. 3 years from now should something like this go down - we'll say...."that's a shame. God restore the broken and protect the hearts of the innocent" but will we let our life be consumed for years with hatred and stirring as much crap as possible in an attempt to destroy Brad. No. You give warning, you notify leadership and let God be God and let them learn whatever it is they get to learn from their choices. That's kinda how real life works.
Deletebtw- there was no earth shattering announcement this weekend. Go figure.
Interesting.. you reference "you people in the valley'" Meaning that you are most likely not local, but you're able to say that "the place is a mess." Are you basing "that place is a mess," on only information from this board? it's pretty one sided.
DeleteThe church is a collective group of people. Apparently, in FL it was more about Brad. Many people here didn't trust Brad already. Many people have returned to the church since Brad left.
Messy things have happened because of Brad and the board but it can all be mended. God is at work in a powerful way!
DeleteI go to Pathways church but a family event took us out of town and we were not able to attend this weekend's service. I am anxious to know if anything substantial was announced at church this weekend, given a posting which indicated there would be.
ReplyDeleteAt last weekend's service I again refused to put any money in the collection basket... instead I wrote a note & said I would not do so until there was a church meeting and an audit of Pathway's finances. As the service went on, I wondered if I needed to get past what had happened & start to embrace the people who are trying to keep this church together. I see the other pastors working hard to keep things together (although I think Brad's brother is just a goof ball & not sure of his role in the church other than to entertain? He looks like he just pulled himself out of the college dorm when he comes to church).
I would be disappointed if Lance announces he is leaving. I think he's got the maturity & sincerity to keep the church going (although I thought Brad was sincere too, so what do I know?)
Anyway.. please share here what was discussed at church. There are some who do attend.. but couldn't make it this weekend.
Thank you.
There will be a meeting for everyone to discuss the future of the church on May 28th. I will be very disappointed if Lance leaves too. Dave and Lance both seem to be very genuine and humble men. I hope they both stick around and help Pathways continue.
ReplyDeleteMay 28th is a long time away. These people at the church can't manage to put together a church congregational meeting before that? By then, many will have already made the decision to leave. It will be too little too late most likely.
ReplyDeleteI agree May 28th is way too long. I think they are hoping that time will lesson the emotions people have. That or the board is unable to get everyone together until then. I think board members should be available within a short time, when dealing with issues of the church, not when it works for their schedule. Most are business men/women that have huge responsibilities. We need new board members that live their lives for and LOVE the Lord! Lets keep God at the core!
DeleteYes and yes. It doesn't take a PhD in anything to see that it's a pretty messed up place right now. Anybody with a little bit of common sense can see that.
ReplyDeleteI think we are all a little messed up. The staff is doing the best they cam with what they've been given to deal with. I for one am going to stay for now. I don't want to bail until I know what the future holds. God makes beauty out of ashes and although I agree there needs to be further communication and changes to the board I'd like to wait and see what God has in store for Pathways.
DeleteI am really having a problem with you Florida folks being upset with what has happened at pathways. Why don't you spend some tine on the coverup there ? I am sure Brad did all the things you say but Belzer is just a guilty. I called him and he refused to talk to me unless I had a court order. Sure sounds like he has something to cover up. We will take care of our situation in Appleton so why don't you finally take care of business in Ft. Myers once and for all.
ReplyDelete↑↑↑ Agreed
DeleteThis is an open forum. If you are having a problem with what is written here, then you need to quit coming back and reading it.
ReplyDeleteBrad Liebe has devastated two churches and countless families. Both the Florida Church and Pathways have this in common. The problem started when the Church in Florida did not press charges. Most people who steal that amount of money from an employer go to jail. Betzer does have something to hide which is why he wanted the entire thing to go away so quickly. He too is an adulterer and thief. Brad knows this and used this as an ace in his pocket when settling with first AG. Brad never learned his lesson. He escaped with a little embarrassment and that is basically it. The people of Florida and Pathways need to work together to be sure that we do not pass this on to the next group of people. I agree that we should let God be God but the fact is God uses people to execute His will. Brad has no business being a pastor or in any church leadership. Frankly, we owe it to Brad and his family to make sure that he is removed for good from the pulpit. God can and will forgive. God can and will restore Brads family but he has handed over his calling because of his selfish acts of greed and adultery. Please, let’s work together on this. We should not act as a lynch mob but rather a group of people (the church) who is willing to do the right thing so others may not have to go through the pain we have. Love Brad and his family but do not allow him to pastor again!
ReplyDeleteWhoa.....what???
DeleteDan Betzer had an affair too??
We in Ft. Myers have "gotten over" Brad. He is a far distant memory for those of us who have been long attendee's. We have so many new members that wouldn't have an idea who Brad was. We have all moved on and are very happy with our church and our pastors. Some of us were concerned when we understood Brad took over a church. We knew what the inevitable would be. Hopefully this charlatan will not bilk anyone else. Please understand that some of us have commented out of love and concern, never to criticize.
ReplyDeleteDefinition of AG ministers children work around:
ReplyDeleteBrad gets kicked out of the AG so Larry Liebe pulls some strings and next thing you know he is Pastor of Pathways. You have not seen the last of him, he will get another gig.
Last year at this time it was Chris and Kelly Dudley (both) missionaries to Convoy of Hope (both sets of their parents are AG missionaries and knew about the money and affair by the way). Now, Chris is an "employee" of Convoy and Kelly isn't even though nothing has changed.
LoL ..... Hey everyone, do yourself a favor and have a beer, read a Frank Viola book, and get out of the organized church as soon as you can. Give your tithe money to a single mom or to someone that could really use it.
I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are nothing like your Christ - Gandhi.
DeleteI know Gandhi wasn't a Christian, but his words are so often too true.
AGREE!!! The church is just another business with lots of corruption!
DeleteThat quote is one of the biggest cop outs ever. I know it's all enlightened and accepting to quote people like Gandhi and Buddha and people of their ilk. If he liked Christ than he should've followed Him. Same goes for you and anyone else who tries to hide behind the old "Christians are hypocrites" mantra. Tired of it.
DeleteOne of the most accurate observations by one of the most important and influential people to have lived is a cop out? wow.
DeleteAnd you have written what?
Yeah it is. As a Christian, I believe Jesus who said that God had put all things under his feet. Therefore, when a person uses the hypocrisy of those claiming to follow Christ or (gasp!) actually following Christ as a reason not to bow their knee to the God of all glory, it's a cop out. Don't care if Gandhi, Oprah, or Joe the plumber said it. The fact that you call a statement like that "one of the most accurate observations" is telling.
DeleteLance is leaving, the church just hasn't announced it because of all the shock the church is currently going through. Pastor Lance and Dave are great people, sincere and people of God. I haven't figured what Brandons role is either. But thats how it goes when relation hires relation. Jo Ellen was doing a great job, Brandon kind of just took over.
ReplyDeleteWe have stopped giving also and will continue very guarded to see how things are handled as the church goes forward. My faith in the church organization as a whole has been crushed. What a sad situation. We are no better than the Catholics, moving the pedophile from one place to another.....isn't that exactly what we are doing? My faith in the church system has been crushed and the board can do everything they can to make things better. I can forgive but I will never forget, it will be hard for me to trust this organization unless they do the audit and hold Brad accountable, if he indeed did have his hand in the pot again. We asked about this and Brandon, said what good would it do? It would cost a lot of money to do it...sounds like another cover up in the Liebe family.
Where is Lance going and how do you know this?
ReplyDeleteLance is moving to Oregon to be closer to the rest of his family. He is leaving the ministry completely to work in another occupation. I know this as I am a member of the worship team. Lance is a good man and should not bear any critical comments here. He is doing what he feels is best for his family. He had decided to leave before the Brad blow up.
DeleteEven when you do an audit, it won't show abuses that Brad has surely been involved in.
ReplyDeleteExamples:
Brad will have taken an international vacation, but it will look like a missions trip. He lived like a millionaire and did $200 lunches, but that is just a ministry expense. He funneled money to his family, one of which he was having sex with, but it will look like missions giving.
Do yourself a favor ... instead of giving your tithe money to Brad Liebe, Larry Liebe, Dan Betzer, Kelly Dudley, Roland Dudly, Paul Weis ...... give it to a family in need. Give it to a kid that can't afford dental care. Do what Jesus what do.
I so agree with this!
DeleteNot diminishing all the real hurt and pain at Pathways. I know it's tough times. But was this really a surprise? Brad Liebe's handling of scripture was deplorable, he tweeted nothing about his affection for the LORD, only his affection for espresso and snuggling with his kids, he yelled at specific people from the pulpit for things like leaving the service or putting their feet on the pews, and he stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from the last church he was at. Guy's a wolf plain and simple. It's shocking to me that people actually throw the "grace card" out there in this situation. Ironically, it's this mentality of "everyone sins and how dare you judge" that Brad preyed off of to get what he wanted: money, power, and sex. It's also why he got away with it for what? 4 years? I take it back, it's not that shocking since this is what passes for church in America most places: come get your coffee, clap to some music, get your kids in a good program, and listen to a message that's all about how awesome you are and how God can make you "awesomer."
ReplyDeleteIf I were a Pathways attender I'd be more concerned about how he could pull this off for so long than I would be about what he's done. Anyone with an ounce of spiritual discernment should have seen and said something long ago.
Things were brought up (even to Brad himself) but everything was smoothed over and made to look like their was nothing wrong.
DeleteThis falls on the Board. I'm sure they knew more than they would ever be willing to admit. They need to be replaced with new people, new by laws ans fresh eyes to see differently! The meeting they are holding should be interesting. How that is handled will speak volumes.
Please don't bother to read this blog if you have nothing nice to say about Pathways church. That church helped me find God and I believe I have at least one ounce of spiritual discernment about me. I do however question yours for making such a harsh, unforgiving statment.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see where you had to have all kinds of "nice things" to say about Pathways church to read and respond on this blog. They have a forum for that: it's called their Facebook page.
DeleteThe church is supposed to help people find and understand and worship God. They don't get a free pass for doing so. You've proved my point exactly. If you call what I said "harsh" and "unforgiving" what would you say to John the Baptist who called for repentance? Or for that matter, what about Jesus who called people "white washed tombs", "crooked and perverse", who took a bull whip into what amounts to a church and told those in it they had turned it into a "den of thieves." I'm not comparing myself to them so please don't get off on that tangent. This is a bigger deal than just Pathways church. Those who try to make others feel bad for caring about the spiritual health of their city and the fact that a man just fleeced and deceived thousands of people in the name of Christ should really stop and think what they're defending. It's not just Pathways but they have become an example. The example here is that they have a huge building, draw big crowds, and have a ton of people going in and out who could tell you the starting lineup of the Packers better than they could delineate the gospel. There's TONS of churches like Pathways out there. Last thing we should do is say all kinds of nice things about them, spout some out of context verse about how God has a plan for them, and go on with life.
Pathways Church is not the problem that is being discussed here. It is the wolf of a former pastor, Brad Liebe, who is being discussed. People can and often do find God sometimes even in spite of the pastor as in this case. You have the Holy Spirit to thank for that. Evidently, He called your name and you listened and responded. God is good. If you still cannot see that Brad Liebe was a false pastor then you have no spiritual discernment whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteFor those of you that say, "Who is without sin? Brad's human like the rest of us." You need to understand that Brad is a serial sinner, without remorse or acknowledgment of his wrong doing. He is NOT like the rest of us. He just keeps doing bad things and getting away with it. He knew he should get out of the ministry after stealing all that money, but didn't. He knew he should step down after having an adulterous affair with his sister-in-law, but he chose not to. Instead he chose to have ANOTHER affair! He chose to blackmale and threaten people (including his family and close friends) to keep them quiet.
ReplyDeleteBrad Liebe is MOST DEFINITELY NOT like the rest of us. He's done far more damage than good in this lifetime.
The Liebe family is a dangerous group if arrogant fakes. You would be best to steer clear.
My computer won't let me reply to the post regarding people of Pathways having an ounce of spiritual discernment - so this post is for you.
ReplyDeleteIf you are not a Pathways attender, how do you know so much about Brad? You are passing some serious judgement. Brad is definitely a wolf in sheep clothing and I don't condone any of what he did. BUT, it is not man's church, it is God's church and Pathways has touched a lot of lives. There's no denying Brad knew how to "do church".
If you are familiar with Pathways at all, you would know that Brad took a dying church and implemented strong Biblical principles. We pray for needs during worship, we have a Bible reading plan that members can follow, consistent worship/baptism services and have huge community outreaches. He took a dying church that barely preached the Bible and had mediocre worship to what it is today.
God did what he promises to do....mans sin will find them out. God didn't let Brad continue in HIS Kingdom work with his morals so out of whack. So now we move on and move forward as God's church.
Pass judgment all you want - but what happened is only making us stronger and I challenge you to find another church in the valley where the presence of God is felt any more than it is at Pathways. Anyone at the Encounter worship/baptism night last night will agree.
Not even sure where to start after that. Brad "implemented strong Biblical principles." Which ones? I couldn't care less that Brad knows how to "do church." In fact, that statement makes me want to vomit. What you're saying is he knows how to go through the right motions to manipulate people. He knows how to draw a crowd. What he doesn't know how to do is be a an actual Christian. How to be a humble servant. My guess is that his leadership fostered followers who are a lot like him. Looks good on the outside but at the core there is not a heartbeat for and a passion for the glory of Jesus Christ. Again, this is EVERYWHERE not just at Pathways. Don't be deceived. Your church is sick and God will need to do a healing work. Don't just cheerlead this thing away and get all puffed up about how awesome your church is.
DeleteYou do need to move on and I hope that the people there seek the LORD more than ever before in the process. But if you're not careful you'll try to fill your pulpit with someone who knows how to pull all the same strings as Brad to make sure the crowds keep coming. Just that he doesn't sleep around. Attendance seems to be the standard for God's presence. If that's what Pathways is looking for they'll do the same thing they did last time they had to hire someone: find a guy who can "do church."
Is that why all your pastors are leaving? What about your corrupt board that can't be trusted? I don't doubt that you are a fine group of innocent victims, but Brad's preaching was VERY mediocre. There are far better preachers in the Valley. I am glad you were able to get something out of his nonsense, that is the Holy Spirit working despite all that Satan is doing to distract you! Praise God!! But seriously, your church is deeply flawed and will not get though this corruption with the same liars and cheats left in place. That is why all your pastors are leaving. Overturn your board and work on setting up some new bi-laws to operate under and you will likely be better off.
DeleteNo doubt we need by-laws, a board of directors handbook with clear roles and term lin=mits. In essence good non-profit checks and balances and we can move forward very well. People will forget Brad fast. He is mistursuted and not liked by a lot of us. i know we can in the side door so he wouldn't kiss my wife-gross. We tolerated his sloppy sermons, his pushy style of asking for offering, his repetition of the same stories over and over and over. We loved what our kids were getting so stayed. We are excited to see what God will do know that he is gone.
DeletePathways was thriving when Brad came. I was an usher and saw the growth. There was excitement each Sunday as God was adding to the church for the past several months prior to his coming. The worship under Gary was actually more dynamic. The preaching was better than the repeated stories, the pusshy offerings, the talking so fast you couldn't keep up. Brad stepped into a great situation with a great staff. It takes a team! and took the credit. HUBRIS
DeleteWhat pastors are leaving other than Lance? And to the person who doesn't know where to star and wants to vomit...do you know what Godly Principles are??? READ THE POST YOU ARE RESPONDING TO. Bible reading, baptism, praying for the congregations needs. You don't think those are Godly principles? Also, the church IS for sick people and hurting people. It should be a place of healing and restoration. Not a place of pious, puffed up Pharisees of which you are sounding a lot alike. I'm glad you are not God and that I don't stand in your judgement!
DeleteAnother post that ignores context. Not judging salvation. Stop using that tired line of argument. If we should exercise no judgment than Brad should still be your pastor.
DeleteOnce again, no one is condemning Pathways Church. It is Brad Liebe who is being condemned here and rightfully so. I hope within everything in me that Pathways will survive and thrive. I hope a truly Godly man of God will be found to lead the church. Oh, and by the way, you do NOT have to be an "attender of Pathways" to know "so much about Brad." His reputation precedes him. Pathways people are not the only group of people who have been harmed by him. There are many, many others out there all over the world in fact.
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!! Well said!
DeleteIn an attempt to put some facts to all this information I have contacted the IRS and completed the necessary forms along with along with links to this site as well as Chads blog. I named as part of the investigation Ft. Myers Assembly of God, Dan Belzer and Brad Liebe. This situation is now up to the IRS to investigate. Based on my experience as an IRS agent the service does not even report to God. What is at state for Dan and Brad is the use of church funds for personal use. As for the church this will put in jeopardy the tax exempt status. Basically this will cause a bigger mess than already exists. The AOG will not be able to talk their way out of this. If you want to know about this it is form 211 under IRS notice 2008-2 dated January 14, 2008.
ReplyDeleteI applaud you. If the truth isn't brought out, then it must be extracted.
Delete3 things really stand out to me:
1. If Pathways doesn't run itself under Gods principles, then it is not Gods Church.
2. Preaching Gods word there and letting things run completely amok, is not what God has in mind for His Church.
3. They dug their own grave when they hitched this Church to Liebe.
I pray for Pathways daily.
His name is Dan BeTzer; NOT BeLzer. First Assembly in Ft. Myers already notified the IRS years ago when it all happened there. They turned everything over to them immediately to handle and Brad Liebe is paying the IRS taxes on the money he took from what I have heard. Nobody knows so far if he took any money from Pathways or not. Until that is figured out, there is nothing to report to the IRS. They certainly don't care about adultery which is what caused Brad to lose his job.
ReplyDeleteAll I know is that God is mpving at pathways. Telling people to move on away is trying to cause division which is sata s work. Yes brad did wrong and should be turned ovet so his soul be changed because obviously he is not repentant..but to tell Christians to not gather because the board and.bylaws syructure need work and transsperancy is no reason to quit. In fact there has been a new freedom since brad was removed. Why leave when God is working? That's the problem in the church, people bashing it instead of being an example of a Cbrist follower. Only one pastor is leaving the currant ones are doing an amazing job. If you are afraid the Holy Spirit can't deal with this as good as you can
ReplyDeleteMaybe you debbie downers should pray for healing of those brad hurt and move on. God is moving at pathways, people being saved, miracles happening, his presence stronvly touching lives. Instead of telling members of the body to isolate theirselves lets pray for unity in the body and for a revival in the valley like never before. Let all the parts in all the churches rise up as we are called to glorify God and preach the gospel, not discord. SOMETHING IS HAPPENING IN THESE LAST DAYS, TIME TO GET ON BOARD WITH JESUS, DON,T MISS OUT, GOD WANTS TO MOVE IN HIS BODY POWERFULLY. COME ON, AWAKEN CHURCH OF THE LIVING ONE AND ONLY GOD.!!
Brad has developed the ability to believe his own lies. He believes he was set up in Fort Myers and that Dan Betzer reconsidered his stance on retirement. He believed that he would not get a fare shake when it came to the restoration process the AG has in place. He believes he has superior inelegance to those he works with and preaches to. He somehow believes that stealing and adultery does not disqualify him for the ministry. Folks, Brad Liebe has his own sense of reality and truth. Do everything you can to separate yourself from him or you will get hurt, count on it!
ReplyDeleteI am a member of Pathways and I will admit that I am having a difficult time going back there. I love the friends that I have made the last 3 years but I no longer trust some of the other Pastors or the board members. And they say to talk to them if we have questions about anything - how can I ask them if I don't trust them? I hope as a church we can recover from this and move on but I for one will not follow so blndly anymore.
ReplyDeleteI agree, lesson learned!
DeleteI tried replying to comments above about Lance and Dave and couldn't so I will put it here. I like and respect both Pastor Lance and Dave and I hope all this going on with Brad doesn't have negative effects on their life. I would actually like to see Pastor Dave step up to be lead Pastor if as a church we can recover.
ReplyDeleteDoes it matter if the spelling isn't quite correct . From what I hear he is just as guilty of inappropriate use of church funds as Brad was. Is he also paying back the chhrch?? Ha ha. Fat chance.
ReplyDeleteWho is just as guilty of "inappropriate use of church funds as Brad was"?
ReplyDeleteI started going to Pathways 2years ago and I feel like such a fool! Brad pulled me in. This only makes me understand myself more. That I am still easily swayed by people with "that way of talking". Those people who know how to say the right thing and get you hooked. How do I trust again? When I thought I could trust... I'd been searching and I thought I found a place where my kids could find a good message. Again, this says a lot about me, about the people who believed in the lies.
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious but needs to be stated clearly....Pathways Church is NOT Brad Liebe. What God is doing and has done in the lives of individuals experiencing the transformational love of Jesus is not the direct result of any Man - now matter how flawed or seemingly "perfect" they appear. That goes for Brad, Dave, Lance...anyone. Only the Holy Spirit draws men and women so don't be disillusioned by one mans screw up. Or fall into this pit of negativity. Put your focus on where it should be. The truth that sets your free and the message that gripped your heart doesn't change.
DeleteTrust the LORD. Listen to the LORD. He's real. He's listening. Let your faith in Him open the door for the power of His grace wherein you don't need to be rocked back and forth on the whims of boards and pastors. I pray that God sees this work he's started through to the end. You're on the right track.
DeleteDon't be too hard on yourself. This guy has been doing this for a lifetime. He fooled a lot of people.
DeleteThe other pastors at that church at the real deal.
Your post breaks my heart because I know exactly how you feel. I too was friends with Brad and Jana for many years and shared several special times with them. After learning of all the lying and cover ups and money that was stolen I was devastated. I felt so betrayed. I took it personally. I couldn't believe how blinded I was! I was angry at them, but also myself for being a part of the game. Then, when rumors started of his long-term affair with Kelly I didn't believe it for a minute. I knew them both and defended them insistently never believing they were capable of doing that to Jana! WOW how dismayed I was to learn the truth. It's troubling to me that I trusted, and defended, and believed in my pastor to be a good man. How stupid of me!!! Now I fear I may never trust a church or pastor ever again. How can I when I KNEW these people and still didn't believe it!?!
DeleteI know your pain and fear and sadness. You are not alone! PLEASE don't blame yourself! It will eat you up. Please don't let the Liebe family crush your walk with The Lord or your faith. They are the bad ones, not you! Please don't blame yourself!!!
Just because a building has the word "church" on it does not mean that it's the Holy Spirit drawing people. Just like Culvers draws people with free ice cream so do "churches" draw with lights, music, and Easter egg hunts.
DeleteWe need to be prepared for the meeting on the 28th! I heard they are going to ask for the questions to be written down and then the board will choose which ones to respond too. Will they answer the tough questions? Will the board make admissions and accept responsibility for the neglect of doing their job to protect the church and staff and for lacking in judgement? Will those most guilty (JJ) step down for the sake of the church? We will as a church family being willing to speak up as necessary at this meeting so we can move forward with leadership we can trust? This will be the make it or break it point for me. Mathew 18.
ReplyDeleteThe board was told about what Brad's lying to get the job and did no investigating. They heard about his confession in Florida which confirmed his guilt and did no investigating. They were told about his affair and did no investigating. They were aware of all that was on the web and did no investigation. They were told about his abuse of staff members and did nothing. There were made aware of his outlandish/unethical spending and did nothing. And there is more. As a church we must do something and make them accountable! Make it on the 28th amd demand the truth. Demand we have biblical/spiritual leadership. It's time for a change that will allow us to move ahead with full confidence in our leaders. It's the piece of the puzzle needed for healing to be completed and for confidence to be restored.
ReplyDeleteI spoke with a fellow Pathways member yesterday and I mentioned how awful all of this was and how disappointed I was. They responded with, yes it's hard, but what Brad did was just a hiccup. I was surprised by his response and said, a 3 year affair with your sister-in-law and then another to follow is hardly a hiccup. He said to me, oh no it wasn't that long. It was just a one time thing.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't believe my ears!!!! People are so easily deceived! So quick to justify Brad's sin and defend him! How can you be so blind? How can you defend a man that has done serious damage to our faith on a world-wide level? I am appalled and dismayed by our lack if discernment. Pathways PLEASE stop justifying Brad and the board's actions. We have the power and opportunity to be heard and end this charade! Show up on the 28th and be heard! DO NOT allow them to lie to us anymore!!! Speak the truth!
And to my fellow members.... Please don't take this lightly. When you make light of brads behavior, you are doing nothing more than encouraging it. That's not ok.
To whomever hosts this site is it possible provide a more obvious link from the last page to this page? Many people can't seem to find it.
ReplyDeleteWho were you getting these responses from, his brother? When we talked with Brandon, that's what we got, a let's not look back kind of approach. What relative wouldn't want to smooth over something their brother did and make it seem like it was hardly nothing? How can we respect these people as our leaders? You can't tell me they didn't know something was going on. Did anyone approach Brad? Check into the allegations?
ReplyDeleteIf I would have known about this blog before all of this, I would have been asking questions big time!
No, it wasn't Brandon.
Deletewow.. 1st of all, I want to say I am glad that I am not the only one that has all these questions. I will be at the meeting on the 28th and I am very curious as to what will be said there. 2) I have talked to other members and have gotten mixed responses. Some are lets forgive and forget, we need to move on, it's in God's hands, etc.. and others are more like me - how could this have been going on for so long and nothing be done about it? How can I trust this church again? Will my questions get answered honestly or with more lies? 3) I believe in God and this has not changed that. I hope Pathways can recover and I hope I can find the feeling of peace there that I once did.
ReplyDeleteIf you really want to right the wrongs that have plagued Pathways, then you need to get at the root of the problem. What/who is at the root of it all? Mike Randerson.
ReplyDeleteI know Mike. I like Mike. He really is a great guy but, like all of mankind, he's a sinner.
How is Mike the problem? Mike is the one who established and ran the church from it's onset. Mike is the one who established the first board and the church's bylaws. These bylaws (or at least the way they were/weren't enforced) is where the first changes need to made. Pathway's bylaws do NOT follow biblical principals or church government examples. In Mike's church, Mike is "King". Whatever Mike (or his wife, Terri) wanted, Mike got.
Regularly scheduled board meetings, as well as church body meetings, were few and far between if they existed at all. Board member elections were all for show as Mike "appointed" who he wanted when he wanted. Mike Randerson held all of the power in and over the church. This is far from the biblical model.
The biblical model has a board of elders controlling the entire church. Church staff and deacons support the elders. Pastors, pastor. If Pathway's bylaws and government followed the biblical model Mike and Brad's only duties would be preaching/leading church services and prayerfully guiding the board. They would have no "power" over the board and/or church.
After the bylaws, the next problem is with the board of directors. Either the board did not know that Pathways operated in a manner contrary to the biblical example, or they didn't care. Either way, they are not qualified to lead a church.
What about J.J. Eaton? As said elsewhere on this blog, J.J. is indeed a nice guy, an incredibly talented musician, an awesome father/husband, and gifted leader. But J.J. is also unqualified to lead a church. J.J. has repeatedly enforced the rules and laws laid out by Mike. If you confront J.J. with the errors of his ways, he defends Mike vehemently. J.J. may have a good head for business but he has a long track record of supporting the wants and desires of Mike and Brad even if those wants contradict biblical directions. Does this make J.J. a bad person? No, it makes him a misdirected person. A misdirected leader will misdirect his followers.
Everthing you have addresses is true. I hope you will be at the meeting on the 28th and ask the board these tough questions! We CAN'T roll over and just move on as usual. God exposed Brad and his wrong doings to shake up the church....I believe that was to wake the congregation as well. We need to take a stand and call for accountability, change and a new structure to how we move forward.
DeleteMary Bough(board member) is Randersons sister.
How did Brad get his Job at Pathways? Ask Mike Randerson. Mike has a long history with the AG church. Mike is also friends with Brad's father, Larry.
ReplyDeleteAfter Brad was kicked out of the AoG organization, Brad's dad called Mike and asked for a huge favor. Mike brought Brad in to help out at Pathways. As Mike's health declined, Brad was hired as an associate pastor on Mike's insistence; the board had very little - if any - say-so in the matter. As Mike's health further declined, Pathways was in need of a senior pastor and Brad was there. There was never a vote on the matter. There was never any search for a pastor. There was never any announcement made to the church body that Brad (or anyone) was being hired, that there was a need, that a position was open, and there never was a search for Mike's replacement.
Even though Mike has not been a visible part of Pathways since Brad took over, this does not mean that Mike is out of the picture. Mike and J.J. still work together on Pathways issues. Mike is still paid by Pathways and is also on the church's health insurance plan. Could this be why J.J. is so adamant that the church financial documents be kept away from the church body?
Obviously, Pathway's foundation should be the bible. After that, the church government is what everything else is built upon. Looking to one man to lead it all is NOT a biblical concept and this is where the entire foundation became a pile of sand.
There are some awesome people at Pathways church. Amazing things have taken place at Pathways. Countless lives have been changed for the better because of this church. If you really want these blessed things to continue then the church needs to be rebuilt on the rock of the bible and not on the sand of man.
An honest election needs to be held for a new board of directors. A new set of bylaws firmly based upon the biblical model need to be drafted. And new pastors need to be hired and vetted by the board AND the church body; "cronyism", or "nepotism" should never be allowed.
Mike may have started the church with a heart full of God but Mike's church has become corrupt and has been that way since almost the beginning.
Pathways deserves to soldier on and continue His work but it needs a complete "Spring cleaning" with new management from the ground up if it ever stands a chance to be a "healthy" church.
Pathways will never reach it's full potential as long as the people responsible for it's problems remain in control.
Most of the above two posts about Mike the laying down of the churchs governance are NOT based on fact but an imperfect persons perception. As a former board member I can tell you we adopted the same structure as Willow Creek. We went there for training. The board had a voice. There was a governance commiteee, financial commitee and an executive committee. It was balanced and biblical. Mike was open to what we have to say and did allow the board to play out its role.
ReplyDeleteI wrote the above post based upon my knowledge and experience garnered from my position on the board.
DeleteDid Mike follow Willow's example? Not according to Mike. Unfortunately, I am unable to find the email from Mike, but in it he leaves no doubt about what model he followed and it was neither Willow Creek's example nor the bible.
Pathways went to Willow Creek for quite a lot things. Willow Creek is indeed a great resource. But just because Pathways availed themselves to Willow's knowledge base in no way means that Pathways actually utilized said knowledge. A perfect example is the church survey/study that Mike pushed big-time. Based upon the results of the study, Willow altered their Wednesday services and let go of staff who had been around for years. What did the study say about Pathways? It said that it's weakest link, the part people liked the least, was Mikes preaching. Did Pathways congregation ever hear about the study results? Nope. Why? Because Mike didn't like what it said. What did J.J. say about the study? He said that the study was flawed and that even Willow threw out the results.
Were you on the board then?
Were you on the board when a fellow board member pointed out the legal flaws in the church bylaws only to be shot down? Were you on the board during any of the number of times when the board worked to make necessary changes - for the good of the church - only to have their work tossed out because Brad and/or Mike didn't approve things first? These are actions of a single man in complete control of the church, not the board in charge of the church. Neither Willow nor the bible condone such a structure.
On the outside, Pathways government appeared to be biblical. In practice, it is nothing of the sort.
I left due to the boards inability to properly govern the church because of the senior pastor's constant micro-managing and usurping the boards authority.
If you, being a board member, do not see this, then you are part of the problem; either you don't know/understand the biblical model or you don't care.
Thank you for your unbiased input Steve Tripp. The prior comments might have been from an imperfect person.......but aren't we all. Imperfect yes..truthful and factual.......yes.
DeleteSo how much imput does Mike Randerson, if any, still have with the current board and operations of Pathways?
DeletePathways may have started with a Willow Creek model but it strayed drastically from that model almost immediately. I know the Willow Creek model inside and out and I assure you that what we see today is nothing like it. Somewhere along the line during Mike's leadership and then Brad's leadership things changed. If in fact Mike was running the church as willow creek does then he should have never been able to appoint Brad or anyone else to be the senior pastor. Cover your butt all you want but this church is a far cry from willow creek and its model.
ReplyDeleteDo not be fooled by the "pass the buck" mentality. For many years this has be run with non-biblical by-laws and systems. What once was is no longer. Clean house and don't look back!
Has anybody heard about what is happening on the 28th. What are we doing about now and how will we move into the future?
ReplyDeleteThe staff is broken. Gary leaves, Lance leaves, Brad has to leave and we have only two pastors left.
The board is broken. Chris Cherne stepped down, Dan Chippeaux stepped down and others stepped down prior. ONLY 4 LEFT.
Will we as the people have a real voice?
I was looking at the missions page at pathways and noticed something unusual. Let me know what you think.
ReplyDeleteDick Brogden - College Friend of Brad Liebe and AG missionary.
Joe Gordon - Long time friend of Brad and AG missionary
Brent Liebe - Enough said
Ginny Tripp - Mother of Steve Tripp former board member and AG district official
Michael Chowning - Long time friend of Brad and AG missionary
Catalin Baciu - Long time friend of Brad and AG missionary.
Now for the staff:
Lucas Tuttle - friend of Brad who held a position at the church in FL before Brad got the boot.
Brandon Liebe - Enough said
Too many friends and family. Maybe they get the verizon friends and family discount.
Church you need to fix this problem!!!!
Not to mention 2 of the board members served multiple years at Integrity and now Pathways- one of which was a relative to the Sr pastor: Mike Randerson (Mary Boegh). You would think that would have been a conflict of interest? Having a relative on your board while you are the Sr Pastor? But as stated earlier look at Brad and how he supported friends and family with church funds. The church sure as heck did not pick those people to support or bring on staff. Brad did. And don't even get me started on Jana, I heard she was on the payroll. For what? Being a pastor's wife? I have approached the board regarding Jana. I have not been given a dollar amount as to what she was paid.
ReplyDeleteBut it was confirmed she was being paid. So who else got paid and for what?
I heard she was getting 80,000 and Brad 200,000. Jana did no work. Just a milking by Brad.
ReplyDeleteOMG!?! WHAT??? $80,000 for what? That is outrageous! I guess it does pay to keep a blind eye to your husbands secret affairs! I'm appalled. I've been working in my profession for 30 years and don't make 80 grand! In fact I work my ass off and don't make 80K. What did Jana ever do for that church? Have you ever seen her lift a finger? What the hell is going on in that church?!? This is devastating to me. I'm done.
DeleteBrad Liebe belongs in jail. What a snake. Pathways you enabled this to go on? Why? You are nothing more than a rich boys club. Who was making these decisions? This is a church! Clearly a very SICK church! If all of this health insurance, severance, salary, missions giving to support family is true...it NEEDS to END TODAY! No wonder you can't be transparent with the congregation! There is so much to hide! Why the heck was Jana given a salary? I can't fathom all of this.... This is beyond crooked. This church will never have the favor of The Lord with this kind of corruption. NEVER...
DeleteThis best thing to do at this point is to declare bankruptcy and clear the books of all this money going out to support a bunch of fakes! No more paying Randerson's and Liebe's health benefits, no more severance pay, no more retirement benefits, no more house and car payments, no more giving to the missions friend club, there has to be more... NO MORE!!!! Fringe benefits are for people who deserve it, not for CRIMINALS!!! JJ Eaton you belong in jail too for fraud! You too are a snake!
This is just sick...
does anyone know how much Mike Randerson is still getting paid?
DeleteWill one church meeting be enough?
ReplyDeleteJust a few things:
ReplyDelete- The affair with the sister in law lasted for years ... if it has even stopped ... and it was twisted.
- Go and look at our church records and see how much money was given to Chris & Kelly, Larry Liebe, Janna's parents, Kelly's parents ... and you will begin to see one of the reasons why the family kept the affair a secret for so long. (You begin to understand just how wonderful the AG is when you realize these people are all leaders in that denomination)
- If Chippeaux is gone and JJ Eaton is still in charge, this whole thing is headed in the wrong direction. Chippeaux is the only guy on that board that wanted to hold Brad accountable.
I work in the field of psychology and it has been my experience that anyone who would cheat with their own family/in-laws/brother or sister in law has had and will have multiple affairs. Brad didn't start with Kelly or end with Kelly and that would also be true for her. There are exceptions to every rule, but I am just stating a fact based on my years of experience.
ReplyDeleteIf Jana was really getting paid is it no wonder she didn't do anything about the affair.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, This is why I don't trust the board members. How can I trust them when so many of them are friends of the Liebe's?
And how can we as a church demand that a new board be put in place? Because if there is a way to make those changes, I really want to know. I would like to belong to a church that is based on true Biblical beliefs.
Here are my thoughts on the pastoral salaries we are seeing within the evangelical circles: No pastor of any church should be given a alary of 200K. Why? When salaries become that large even the best men and women of God begin to make decisions based on income and not God. The pastoral position becomes "professional" and loses its calling aspect. I do not feel we need to keep our pastors in poverty but the salary ceiling is simply too high.
ReplyDeleteNo man is immune to greed. When we keep throwing money at them we simply are feeding the temptation. Pay them an honest salary with benefits but not 150K, 200K.
I know some will look at it like a business and say that a good pastor brings in people which increases giving thus he should be entitled to some of that profit. Sorry but that is in conflict with biblical principles. Pathways, we need to take a hard look at what we pay our next lead pastor. If in fact Brad was making 200K and Jana 80K we have done them and God a disservice.
*** Let me give you all some context about the salaries of a pastor. ***
ReplyDeleteI took a pastoral course in college. My instructor spent one entire class period explaining the negotiation strategies for negotiating your salary when interviewing for a church.
Here is what we were taught:
"Do not accept a $60,000 salary for yourself. Rather, counter-offer with $30,000 for both you and your wife. That way, you both can negotiate your own raises and have higher odds of earning much more over time."
It all starts in the Bible colleges, folks. I changed my major after this.
We need an outside group navigate this. It is the board versus the church at this point. How can we move forward? I'm so concerned. ther are many angry and hurt people. Also, I have heard we have joined the 6 figure club of fund abuse by Brad. Thanks again to all the AG people who lied and especially the Fort Meyers coalition. It's like the catholic church. I mad, sad, and angry.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that Brad embezzled money from Pathways too? Is there an audit going on? Or are you referring to the outlandish salaries he and his cohort wife were making?
DeleteShould we have a petition at the meeting to ask the board to step down? I don't mean to sound mean I just to move forward and do it quickly so our church can heal and see Gods potential.
ReplyDeleteThis whole scenario just gets more bazaar by the day. I would really hate to be the Liebe family and have to answer to God one day for all this sin. I understand we all sin, but these people are out of control. It's unfortunate how many lives they have affected, so many people reeling with pain and betrayal, it's heartbreaking. I wonder if the Liebe's feel any guilt? Or do they just feel bad because they got busted? I sure wouldn't want to be them and have to face myself in the mirror each day knowing how hated they all are. What a horrible burden to bare, but I guess that's the price you pay when you cheat and steal and cheat and steal and lie and lie and lie. The high can only last so long before you crash and burn.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the psychologist who commented above. It has been rumored that Brad was having multiple affairs down in Fort Myers, but no one believed he would do that to his wife. I am certain those suspicions are true. Brad has been a fake and a fraud his whole life, he just hid behind his charm, that and threatening people. He's a monster, not worthy of the monetary blessings he's been adorned with. Money is the root of all evil and he is definitely evil!
I hope to God his hey day is over for good now. I hope and pray that people won't continue enabling him. I hope that somehow he will become an honest man and apologize for reeking havoc on all of his friends and family. And get some major psychological help! I hope his children can endure the truth about their father and horrible grandfather. I hope they are able to overcome the stigma of being a Liebe and be better people that can make up for their flawed family. Brad and Larry have placed a great burden on those kids, unless they are narcissists too, like their parents, then the saga continues for another generation. Wow - what a mess!
Brad should write book about all this. It would make for a great made for TV movie! You can't make this kind of stuff up!
Pathways I'm sorry for your church but seriously you people have your heads buried in self-righteous sand. Open up your eyes and stop accepting this load of bs from your staff and board. Can't you see that everyone is out to save themselves at this point? No one is telling the truth. No one!
Brad Liebe you do belong in jail... I couldn't agree more!
Boy with all the people without jobs in the valley- 280,000 is not too shabby. Wondering what lawyers or doctors make on a starting salary? I think I missed the wrong profession? Big lake homes, expensive cars and SUV's, and nice little iPads. Man I wish I would have went to bible school. Where did Brad and Jana go to college that they were taught to take money like that? Or maybe it was just learned behaviors from family and other pastors Brad was exposed to while growing up?
ReplyDeleteNorth Central University. Neither one if them have a diploma. Check into it... They both went there, but apparently neither Brad nor Jana ever graduated.
DeleteThis is an example of why people do not believe in God. How could a man who publically says he is a follower of Christ cheat, steal and lie over and over again. Honestly, if were unsaved i wouldn't want anything to do with church as we know it today. I see nothing appealing to it. I don't see new converts, I don't see people healed, I dont see integrity. Here is what I and the rest of the world sees. Greed, lust, power, stature, lies and a bunch of people full of hot air. Pathways, we are so far from the biblical vision that Christ had for the church. We worship men like Brad. Buildings and programs.
ReplyDeleteLets get back to a church that feeds the hungry, clothes the nakes, loves the unloved and move away from bigger and better lights, coffee bars, sound systems, buildings and building programs. We must hold Brad and those in leadership who have let this happen accountable by removing them from leadership. It starts May 28th! DO NOT LEAVE THAT MEETING UNLESS YOUR QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED. DO NOT LET THEM OFF OF THE HOOK!!!!
I am a new believer and I'll tell you it took a long time to get me to walk in those doors for precisely these reasons! Church is a joke. I always thought that churches were filled with a bunch of hypocrites and now I see that's true. With the added bonus that it is also run by hypocrites, including the pastor! This whole thing has shaken me, I prefer to not be a part of your club anymore. It's just one big lie after another. I love Jesus, but not churches.
DeleteHave Larry Liebe & Steve Tripp lost their jobs? Did JJ Eaton get kicked off of the board for corruption? Have the Dudley's and Weis' been held accountable for their knowledge of the affair? Have Larry's presbyters been held accountable for their knowledge of the Kelly affair and money issues? Has Kelly, AG missionary, been held accountable? Are Brad or Kelly remorseful for hurting God's people? Have the two of them paid back the money for trips, jewelry, gifts, etc?
ReplyDeleteThe answer to all questions: "HELL NO!"
Ministry is too important to leave in the hands of the ministers. Step up people of Pathways. The corruption ends now.
$280,000/year between the two of them(Brad and Jana)? Not a bad haul when you think about Brad's oh so humble beginnings and how his grandfather was oh so poor and didn't have two pennies to rub together(makes one wonder if his grandfather really was ever poor and what he really taught his family?)
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Jana got a severance package too???? If Brad got one, I am sure she did too....
Brad's nothing but a story-teller.
DeleteDo we know for sure that Brad received a severance package? I would hope any contract in place would have included a morals clause.
DeleteIt's humorous that we dont' know anything about severance, insurance, randersons payroll amount, whether Jana was on payroll, brads salary amount and there are so many people up in arms about it. Since when does any employer make such private information public. It's none of you business - since some people will say people are over paid and others will say they are way under paid.
DeleteWhat is the goal of this page. To just be a place to throw conspiracy and rumors. 'I heard all the pastors got lake cottages because the AG was targeted by Obama."
A church should have NOTHING to hide. It is NOT a business! All of that information should be available to anyone who asks for it. Transparency is the key to trust here. This is serious, not at all "humorous,"
DeletePayroll information is indeed private information, except in the case of a church. What's the difference between a church and a business such as McDonalds? McDonalds employees don't pay upper management salaries out of their pocket.
DeleteA pastors salary is paid directly buy the people he is pastoring. If you paid someone to do a job, would you seriously consider letting that person do that job without ever knowing what you are paying them???
A church of God first and foremost belongs to God. The Bible is pretty clear on how a church needs to conduct it's business and nowhere does it say that a church should be managed by a single person.
The church body has the right, and responsibility, to know where the money goes. The only reason to keep a secret is because you have a secret to keep. If Pathways is not completely transparent with their finances it's because they know that there would be outrage if the congregation really knew what was going on.
As far as salaries go, there is absolutely no reason why any church staff member should be earning more than the average congregant. Anything more than that average is money that should be used to help those in need and not to afford men of God Earthly luxuries. It's a matter of priority and if your priority is not God, you've a lot of praying and soul searching to do.
501c3 organizations are required to disclose salary info. It is not private information. That is since when.
DeleteBrush up on your knowledge.
Here is the info:
Question:
I work for a 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation. Are its financial statements available for public viewing -- especially regarding management salaries?
Answer:
Indeed. Nonprofits are required to submit their financial statements and other information -- including the salaries of directors, officers, and key employees -- to the IRS. (For information on who is considered a key employee, see IRS Form 990 and its instructions.)
The IRS and nonprofits themselves are required to disclose the information on Form 990 to anyone who asks. Nonprofits must allow public inspection of these records during regular business hours at their principal offices. However, many people won't even need to ask -- a number of websites make Forms 990 available for the searching, including the Foundation Center at http://fdncenter.org and GuideStar at www.guidestar.org.
In addition, people can request information from the IRS by writing a letter, including the name of the organization, the year, and the type of tax return requested, and send it to:
Commissioner of Internal Revenue
Attn: Freedom of Information Reading Room
1111 Constitution Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20224
Better yet, the form is available at http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4506a.pdf.
DeleteOrdered one
I do not know if Brad or Jana got a Severance packages or not? As stated earlier you would think there would have been a morals clause in the contracts? But with the Pathways board, I highly doubt it. When this was all first told to the church I do recall something about 'pay would continue for a little while' or something to the effect that 'Brad is now gone as Sr. Pastor with a Severance package'. Jana was never mentioned as getting one. So at the church meeting it would be good to know if she was being paid and for how much. Then also what Brad was being paid and if he is getting paid now and for how much. If he and Jana are still getting paid, I guess my question would be: WHY?
ReplyDeleteAnd while we are talking about pay, it would also be nice to know if Mike Randerson is still being paid as well? I have heard hints that he is still being paid or getting health benefits?
Anyone know if that is true or why we still would support him?
Attention Pathways Members:
ReplyDeleteIf you are going to the meeting on May 28th that "they" have organized, planned for, and invited you to, "they" are already in charge.
By "they", of course I mean JJ Eaton and his merry band of gullible followers he calls a board. Chippeaux was the only independent thinker amongst them and now he is gone.
My point is this - JJ Eaton has already been talking to lawyers paid for by "you". Thanks for the tithe money! These are the same lawyers, also paid for by "you", that he used to keep the Kelly Dudley affair hush hush for so long. He is ready for "you" at his meeting. He will act like he is playing nice, but the bottom line is to squelch this little rebellion of yours. He needs your mouths shut and your pocket books open.
I would suggest getting a copy of the by-laws, a lawyer of your own, and having a meeting before the May 28th meeting. That way, at least you are prepared on May 28.
Otherwise, JJ is just going to let you get a few things off of your chest and then spin you into submission.
What is the only thing worse than Brad and Kelly screwing each other for years and stealing money? The answer is simply all of those that enabled them and didn't speak up. We could go through the list which includes the likes of Larry Liebe, Steve Tripp, etc... but as far as Pathways is concerned, JJ Eaton is at the top of that list.
If I were a staff member at this church, pastor or otherwise, I would be looking for another position eagerly. Any person with integrity simply can't stay on if JJ Eaton is in charge. I understand wanting to stay for the people in hopes if correcting things, but that simply is not possible if the same people are left to run the church.
DeleteEverybody states that JJ Eaton needs to go, but how can that happen. It appears he has his position "locked" in. How could he be removed from the board? Does anybody know?
ReplyDeleteIf he doesn't leave, then you have no choice but to leave. You can't stay and choose to be a part of the corruption. Staying enables him to continue manipulating people and you will find yourselves in a similar situation down the road. Your choice.
DeleteLeave him locked in!! Let him have it! Let him take care of the bills and what monies he owes past pastors. He will be in charge and I'm sure he will do very well.
DeleteWe have to rise up and demand his resignation. Hopefully he will admit his mistakes and resign willingly. I know he has asked others on the board if he should step down and they have told him no- he created this pile of doo doo and now he can clean it up and not dump it onto others. However the 28th must be his last day.
DeleteMinistry leaders: Brad Liebe, Kelly Dudley, Larry Liebe:
ReplyDelete-abuse
-narcissism
-multiple affairs
-lies
-cover up
-embezzlement
-sexual perversion
-targeting and taking down God's churches
-pissing on the faith of well meaning believers.
-lack of remorse
-abuse of power
Christianity had a bad enough reputation before the likes of this ministry family.
Ok, so everyone that wants to know about the church meeting.....
ReplyDeleteIf you haven't been to a service lately, the Pastors are asking you to right your questions on an in touch card or email your questions to info@pathways.org. That is the only way you will have a voice. I don't believe there will be any back and forth dialogue. They will be answering questions.
I don't think one meeting will be enough to address all the issues and how they answer will be a good indicator as to whether we continue to attend. It will be interesting to see if there is another meeting planned or if they think they did their part (the board) and just move on.
From everything I've read in this blog, there are some very serious problems. They start and end with the people making the decisions, and it seems like we can't hold them accountable for anything.
They say they want to be transparent, but they aren't, if they were, we wouldn't need this meeting. Too much has gone on for too long, and we do need to be asking the hard questions!
So... go to church and fill out the cards, or email the church with your questions, then BE THERE.
We have to focus on moving forward beginning with the meeting on the 28th. The rest is just fodder for the enemy.
ReplyDelete1) Current leadership must be held accountable for their cover up. The must own their mistakes and apologize so healing can begin.
2) Those leaders must be removed from their positions as of the 28th.
3) Decisions must be made as to how to approach the leadership gap so the church can function. I would suggest a vote that night.
4) A strategy to gain the trust of the people must be discussed and put in place.
5) Current staff must be included in this process.
6) We should all be praying and demonstrating that even in our frustration we exhibit the fruit of the spirit.
It' s that simple folks! As Pathways that is our role. The AG is doing their own investigation into coverup and the sin of omission. Justice may finally be coming!
Unless Pathways holds an open forum/town hall type of meeting, you will only hear what they want you to hear. No matter what questions are asked, or how many times those questions get submitted, the board is in complete control and do everything in their power to keep it that way.
ReplyDeleteTheir main goal right now is to smooth things over and regain your trust. If the past is any indication of future events (and it almost always is) the meeting on the 28th will be full of double talk, evasive speeches, and canned answers.
If you honestly believe that the AoG has any say-so into what happens at Pathways then you need to run away as fast as you can while taking as many people with you as possible. Pathways is a non-denominational church and unaffiliated with the AoG. The AoG has absolutely no jurisdiction over Pathways. If they do, then there was a lot more going on behind the scenes than they ever let on. Why in the world would any organization quietly make a move into a non-denominational church? The answer can only lay behind dollar signs.
If you want answers, if you want Pathways to be healed, if you want the church to be firmly built upon rock, then go to your bible. If Pathways takes any path other than the one outlined in scripture, then it's an unhealthy church.
As long as current leadership is in charge, they will continue to do what they have always done. As long as leadership term limits do not exist there will always be corruption as power and ego grow the longer someone is in that position. As long as you trust the people who got you into this mess to get you out, you will always be misled.
You think the AG is doing an investigation? By who? Larry and Steve are the top dogs. The AG brass in Wisconsin are like Teflon. Nothing sticks!!! A few years ago the WI AG had an official busted for solicitation of a prostitute and guess what happened to him? Virtually nothing.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the focus needs to be on the leadership of Pathways. You can't help fix the WI AG they don’t know right from wrong, truth from fiction.
Stay the course Pathways and get your current leadership out and VOTE in new men and women with terms.
Part of your statement is out of ignorance. The official you are referencing was not guilty of solicitation, yet was thrown under the bus by his colleagues and lost more than you apparently know.
DeleteIf you don't know truth about what you are talking about, then all you are doing is spreading rumors and gossip.
People here need facts, not hype.
He was thrown under the bus by his colleagues? These are AG people? Men of God?
DeleteEnough said.
PATHWAYS:
ReplyDeleteIf you were in church this past weekend you will see there are 3 people being considered for the board at Pathways. I have no clue who the 3 are? I don't know if they are friends of the board or how they got picked or by whom?
I have been going to Pathways now for 5 years and I thought I knew pretty much everyone in that church. Wrong. And do you think the church board would have put these people's background information in the bulletin so we know who these people are and what their backgrounds are or what they even bring to the table?
What I can tell you is this: the same bs that has gone on in the past is still going on. There is not going to be a vote as to these new members. They will be let on by the board members themselves.
If you are sick and tired of the same old crap- now is your time to voice your dissatisfaction. I have and I suggest you all do the same. I have called the church and emailed some of the board members (AGAIN).
If you are not happy with the current performance of any of your current board members or how people are going to be selected going forward I would encourage you to call the church office and express your frustrations.
They say they are listening. That things are transparent. It can't hurt to find out why things still have not changed and why people that consider Pathways it's home have NO voice yet.
If you don't want to call the office you can email the board members. I think JJ's email address was even in the church bulletin. Or you can go to Pathways website and get the board members email addresses there.
I have decided my family will worship elsewhere. There are plenty of good churches in he valley that really do operate biblically. I am tired of being told 'How things are going to be' And that I need to Trust leadership with my tithe'.
I have a lot of people I call my friend at Pathways. I guess I will just have to make new friends elsewhere.
Give your money to the people devastated in Oklahoma and not to the extremely crooked pastors of the AOG churches.
DeleteWhy would/do the board members at Pathways hang onto their positions? And why would they for so long?
ReplyDeleteAll other Churches I have been to or know of have term limits and are voted in.
This is quite perplexing.
You have a right to be angry but don't give up until after the meeting on the 28th. Come, participate, help things be made right. If they choose not to respond in a way to gain trust then leave. Until then hang in there with the rest of us. I am beleiving for a new day to come soon!
ReplyDeleteI am on the worship team and I am having a very difficult time staying on it. I am planning on staying until the 28th but at this point my faith in any church system (not God - as I believe in Him 100%) is gone.
ReplyDeleteYou are not alone.
DeleteI'm there too! Bless everyone that has been affected deeply. Find your hope and trust in the Rock our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! All else is shifting sand....
DeleteHey everyone, this blog is almost to 50,000 total page views!
ReplyDeleteThis is a very serious issue!
Pray, Pray, Pray for a Godly outcome!
Keep Praying!
April 28 views were 35,236. May 21 views 49,709 which works out to 539 views per day and an average of 10 posts per day. All I can is WOW, the board better get it right May 28. Sad for Pathways if they have most people leave without answers and future direction.
ReplyDeleteAs one of those rejected to serve on the "selection" committee, my guess is that it will be carefully composed of 'yes men' who won't challenge or question the agenda in place, or the faulty procedure that got us in this mess in the first place.
ReplyDeleteI am so sick and saddened by this. I sure hope someone says something If I am off of work I will be bringing all these questions to the "board" if they do not allow me to speak or they pick and choose what to answer I say we picket the church before every service to spread the truth! The staff at pathways is dismissive,secretive and shady if you ask me. Lance leaving, Gary gone, we paid Jana Liebe? for what? I am so sad that this much corruption happened. I saw the end of year budget for last year and they put 250,000 on furniture? Do you know how many meals a QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS would buy for hungry people in Appleton???
ReplyDelete$250,000 for furniture? I don't see where it is. I'd like to see the receipts for what they bought or the depreciation schedule. Is that furniture even there or is it at someone else's house?
DeleteI was rejected as well. Knwoing those who qualified- leadership gifts, the gift of discernment were not pre-requisites. We need to look at this team and hear at the meeting why they qualified!!!
ReplyDeleteWow - $250,000 on furniture? Must have been for personal use because I go to church every week and haven't seen anything new - at least not worth that much.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't understand is how some members are just willing to overlook EVERYTHING and are just content to wait and see what happens. I for one will no longer follow blindly along. My spiritual life means more to me than that.
You can nearly bet your life on it that the $250,000 of furniture is in one of Brad's houses! This is exactly what he did in Florida. Why should we assume differently? He no longer qualifies for the "benefit of doubt." So in addition to making $280,000 in salary, Brad and Jana had to embezzle furniture!?! What else? What else has this church provided them? If we could get a hold of a list if line item budget items, I think heads would roll.
DeleteI agree that our spiritual life does mean more than trusting these wolves blindly. Why should we? Why would we when there are so many other great places to worship in the area. Pathways is not the end all, be all. It is not worth it to me at all. How are we ever suppose to trust anyone ever again?
Has anyone considered writing a well-crafted letter to be published in the Appleton Post Crescent, Letters to the Editor section? Brad Liebe, Larry Liebe, JJ Eaton and Steve Tripp need to be called out by name and held accountable for their criminal, immoral and fraudulent behavior. This may be the only way to get the word out to the public in a civil manner, in order to protect the innocent people of the Valley from being fleeced by these awful men in the future. 50,000 views on this blog is a clear indication that people are searching for the truth and are desperately in need of seeing these wolves held accountable for their actions.
ReplyDeleteHonestly I am shocked at all of Pathways - everyone there - employees, staff, board - anyone that knew of these problems and did little or nothing. So unGodly.
ReplyDeleteMy daughter wept during the service when it was announced. She is still upset and very skeptical of Church now. I believe her faith is still ok, but organized religion is what she is questioning.
She has had to face more difficulties than most and will all of her life. Pathways is the only Church she knew. We are looking at other Churches now.
There is NOTHING more important than a person's faith. These people are supposed to be the leaders - Gods leaders.
My GOD, we're talking about peoples SALVATION here!!!!
But keeping a fast talker is more important? Is the devil in charge there?
I'm just sickened by it. I pray that all involved ask for forgiveness and fix what they have done. Drive the evil out - Now.
How can the board be functioning??? They need 6 according to the by-laws to function. They only have four left. They have anounced four new candidates I've never heard of who can become members if no one objects after 30 days but unitl then???? Did Brad nominated these men?
ReplyDeleteThis is a serious breach!
Demand to know who the people are that were selected to decide on our new Senior Pastor will be and what credentials do they carry to qualify.
ReplyDeleteClearly credentials do not matter when it comes to church. Non-denominational or AG; what do those credentials really mean if no one enforces them?! Assembly of God is a ridiculous religion... I've never in all my life witnessed such complete disregard of peoples salvation in pursuit of tithe, giving and money of any kind.
DeleteMy family tithes a full 10% of our pay. We will start to hold the money until a full budget is released to the church. This is our (church members) money they are wasting. If everyone holds their tithes until a a full budget is released they will have to see our point.
ReplyDeleteWe are tithing to things that are really making a difference in the fox valley. We will no longer support such craziness anymore.....or pad the pockets of liars.
DeleteIt is becoming more and more clear that this is the only power that anyone in the congregation at Pathways has. Money seems to be the only voice that the people have. Quite frankly I can't understand why anyone would willingly associate themselves with such a corrupt organization after having knowledge that their organizational structure does not follow Biblical principles (with the fruit of this resulting in a wolf such as Brad Liebe leading their flock). I would urge caution to anyone who continues to support the current leadership. Please understand that the type of people that would use a church for their own personal gain are not the type of people that will be transparent or would ever change their behavior (which wouldn't matter even if they did change because by default they disqualified themselves from leadership from their actions in the first place).
DeleteMy family has helped others at Pathways. Single moms that really struggle. One in particular is battling major health issues while raising kids.
ReplyDeleteThey said they struggle mightily, but continued to give to Pathways.
They end up missing some meds because of cost, missing meals, beg for money and rides to and from doctors appointments. Their kids are their biggest concern.
How, How, How can the board have done this and not helped the most needy?
But brad can have what he wants - bmw's, suv,s, beautiful second home on a lake, beautiful boat, and on and on.
I have NO idea how anyone can continue to support or even work for or at this place with what went on unchecked.
Simply horrifying! Not Gods idea of Church.
Gods Church is to help the most vulnerable - not to line anyone's pockets.
It os SO simple: Matthew 25:40
whatever you did unto one of the least, you did unto me
MoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoney.
ReplyDeleteSalaries are out of control, buildings have become monuments to the pastors who erect them. Furnishings are top of the line. Jewelry watches diamonds. This is not what was intended for the church.
Pathways leadership - Step down or close it down.
Credentials are worthless as long as there are organizations that will print you a membership card for a simple up front payment. Find a pastor who actually has earned a degree from an accredited university and you will find credentials that may mean something. Brad Liebe never finished college which makes me wonder why the AG would credential him in the first place.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't mind your money being wasted on things then you should consider giving me your tithe. I can spend it just as carelessly as Brad and I certainly will appreciate it more
ReplyDeleteOuch, remember the tithe belongs to the storehouse and that the perpetrator is gone. The other pastors are counting on us. The ministry of the church are still very important. I know its hard. I do realize I give to God and what men do with it is their choice and not my responsibility.
ReplyDeleteWhat? Are you kidding? Keep giving?
DeleteThey bought luxury vehicles, boats, lakefront houses, girlfriends with it and we are to keep giving?
Are we just supposed to blindly give it to Pathways? They have only shown they are fools with Gods money.
God is the poor, the downtrodden, the ones in need. They need your help. Not rich pastors.
Fix it - run it like Gods church and you will fulfill your true mission.
To the pastors and employees of Pathways:
DeleteMany of your members are looking elsewhere because you knew of most of these things and did nothing.
Have faith. God will provide. That is what we were always taught by brad and company.
That is how many at Pathways lived. This is how you must live now.
Think mustard seed.
Oh ye, of little faith.
DeleteWhat on earth can you possibly mean, "It is not my responsibility?!?!" You are required by God to show discernment and wisdom and sound judgment based on Biblical principles! You are required to be a good steward of your resources. If you think you can in any way please God by giving your money to an organization that you know is wasteful,deceitful, and corrupt, then you, my friend, have been deceived.
DeleteIt's getting to the point that I am starting to agree with my husband that all "organized religion" is a scam. Maybe I don't need a church after all - I can pray anywhere I want and it doesn't have to be in a building.
ReplyDeleteThe tithe belongs to the storehouse..... I've heard that said about a million times before. Always by a "pastor" by the way. They teach them to use this phrase in Bible college. They're also teaching them these days how to have a church without a real Board or Council of any kind and where the "flock" has absolutely no input into anything. The "Boards" we see today are a scam; just a bunch of "yes" men who are in real tight with the pastor. Watch and see. That's how it is in most modern churches now. Very different from the past.
ReplyDeleteIf you're in a church where the pastor is telling you to tithe then you need to get up and run out of the place.
ReplyDeleteThe single fact that a pastor is teaching you about the "rule of tithing" proves that he either doesn't know/understand the Bible or that he's after your money.
Be smart, look it up yourself. Tithing was for the Levitical priests. You can read up about it at web sites like gotquestions.org.
If a pastor is deceiving you about tithing, what else might they be wrong about?
what about luke 11:42 is pretty clear that Jesus said we should tithe. I almost thought as you. Satan would love us to control our money. Giving to a church that squanders money on sinful pastors is wrong and hopefully the truth will come out at the meeting as to what happened. But it is hard for me to stop trusting god by giving because I know there are a lot of good things going on at pathways. I would hate to see one mans sin ruin the hope of thousands. The only alternative to organized religion is unorganized, and then it usually becomes organized. By this I mean we are told to gather, if it is in a house , a building wherever. jesus will be in midst, but so will people. So there will never be a perfect gathering because we are not totally perfect yet. This desnt mean we over look sin, but it does mean we don't disobey the Lord.
DeleteIn addition if you're in a church where the pastor's spouse is on salary - RUN! That is the biggest joke I've ever heard! Unless that spouse has a license to preach or is one of the church secretaries there is really no reason to be given a salary of any kind, esspecially an $80,000 one! Church is about volunteering and giving if your time and talent, not money!
DeleteLOL. I think you better take another look at the website you recommended.
DeleteOnly for Levitical priests? LOL
Come on man. Take your own advice...Look it up for yourself. On the VERY site.
And since you have declared false information, what else is might you be wrong about? Just quoting your own words.
You need to be aware that you have been taught that the more you give to the church, the more God loves you. Nothing could be further than the truth. Your pass into heaven IS NOT based on your tithing/giving! You have been guilted into giving constantly. Brad mastered that skill when he was at First Assembly of Fort Myers. Pastor Betzer is known for that kind of "teaching."
ReplyDeleteGiving to missions and tithing more than 10% is not required. If a church can't get a functioning budget together with 10% of ALL of your salaries, then they have a poor leader and a bad accountant.
Stop feeling shame and guilt!!! The Pathways leadership is using YOU! Give to food shelters. Give to homeless shelters. Give to the Humane Society! Anyplace is better than giving to a crooked church!
Your pass into heaven has everything to do with your heart and how you show your love for Jesus in goodwill and kindness to others. It has nothing to do with giving.
There's going to be a riot tomorrow... Yikes.
ReplyDeleteThis is long, but well worth you time to read!
ReplyDeleteIt will be posted in several parts. Please reference http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html for the full article.
Part 1: How Pastors Get Rich
This article exposes the secret methods certain pastors use to get rich off God’s people. Have you ever wondered how some pastors start a church and then become wealthy living in flash houses and driving luxury cars? Well this article exposes how they do it, extracting money from their congregations to fund their lifestyles.
Here exposed are the secret techniques used to fleece money from God’s people. Don’t be naive thinking that these schemes have spread throughout the world by accident. These techniques are talked about and shared behind closed doors by the clique of pastors who employ them. I would not like to be in their shoes when they finally meet our Lord, or for that matter anywhere within the blast radius.
It’s big business. Some of them laugh at us like con-men laughing at their marks. Seriously, if you don’t believe that there are men like that, then watch the 1972 documentary Marjoe. You’ll soon realize that these wolfs in sheep’s clothing have been a blight on Christianity throughout its history.
First let’s discover the primary pattern behind their methods…
The Multilevel Marketing Pattern
We’ve all been approached at some time by a friend caught up in the hope of multilevel marketing. The business they are pushing is simple, sell toothpaste or web sites or whatever, and then recruit people under you doing the same, taking a cut from their sales. Soon you will be so rich that you can buy a flash European car and give stacks of money to Godly causes.
That is the dream. The proof the dream works is embodied in the wealth of the dream’s leaders. They made all their money by following the dream, proving that you can too. Except, that it’s a lie.
These leaders did not become wealthy by following the dream, instead they became wealthy by building up a group of people who believe passionately in the dream, and then selling dream-promoting wares to this captive audience.
I will say it again, because you need to understand this pattern. They did not become rich by selling toothpaste; they became rich by hyping dream-promoting books, tapes, DVDs, and conferences to their own private market of dream believers.
This same pattern is practiced by some Christian leaders and their churches. The dream is the prosperity gospel. Their captive market is their congregation. The products are, well you guessed it, most ominously spiritual rewards and the prevention of spiritual punishments.
You are about to discover how these spiritual vampires feed…
Tip: A clue that you are caught up in one of these churches is if you hear things like, “This is your spiritual home, you can’t go to another church. You must be loyal.” They are very jealous about protecting their market, and do not want to lose one of their paying customers to another church. Some even try to prevent their patrons leaving by making them sign contracts or “covenants”, like a mobile phone company locking you into a two year term. But the Bible does not teach that Christians are bound to their local church organization, this idea is foreign to Scripture.
cont...
Part 2....
ReplyDeleteHyped Conferences
The hype for these conferences start months before hand. Other church members look at you strangely if you are thinking about not going. What, you can’t afford the huge entry fee? What’s wrong with you, don’t you love God? Don’t you want to be blessed? Don’t you want to be successful and wealthy? Don’t you want to be part of us? Because you won’t be, unless you go to THE CONFERENCE!
Each speaker is completely amazing. The next best thing to the second coming.
He’s built a church up from nothing to one with thousands of people. She’s the most Godly woman in the universe who is the best wife ever with the best kids and the best lifestyle, and she’s the pastor’s wife too. He’s from overseas. She’s a corporate CEO. Wow. It’s going to be awesome. It’s going to be triple awesome! It’s going to be mega massive triply awesomely awesome!
The spiritual reward for going is implied to be life changing. The conference fee is nothing, compared to the fire-fighting-bomber worth of blessings and wealth God will dump on your head from upon high.
And Jesus had conferences too, don’t forget, like the Sermon on the Mount, where He charged, oh, he didn’t charge anything for that spiritual teaching. In fact it was free wasn’t it? Hmmm. Well, often the first-movers can’t figure out how to monetize their success, we can’t blame Jesus for that, can we? Gosh, if only He had some books to sell at the back…
Your Counter Strategy: Hire a hotel room, and sit there reading your Bible with a few Christian friends – trust me, spiritually you’ll get more out of it and it’ll cost less. Realize that you don’t need the sugar high of a conference to get closer to God. De-program yourself from the idea that conferences are like a spiritual hot-point you just have to be at. See the hype for what it is. Be led by the Spirit to conferences, not pulled by the fear of losing your church friends and God’s blessing.
Don’t go to these conferences! Demand transparent accounting to the whole church of all costs of visiting speakers, and for that matter transparency about any income your pastor is earning while speaking at other churches and conferences. No pastor earning reasonable fees from away engagements would have a problem with this.
The Honor The Pastor Scam
Money focused churches tend to be run on cultic patterns. One of these cultic patterns is the division of the church into exclusive rings: the all-powerful pastor perched at the center, the inner-ring of staff around him consisting of the pastor’s lieutenants and the church’s privileged class (the rich, the famous and the very pretty), and the outer-ring of the ordinary folk who would love to be in the inner-ring, but are not. (Sound familiar?)
The power of those in the inner-ring is determined by the amount of favor the pastor bestows upon them.
To get more favor the inner-ring will employ many favor-currying measures, one of which is a scam called “Honoring the Pastor”. It works this way, the inner-ring will figure out what the pastor would like, say for his birthday. Then the inner-ringers will squeeze the outer-ringers for the money to buy this item.
Using this method pastors have been “given”: diamond rings for their wives, cash gifts, jet skis, luxury cruises, motorbikes, cars, holidays, boats, and a myriad of other expensive luxury items. Of course they could refuse the gift when it is presented, and make it clear that they don’t want the Lord’s money spent on such things again, but they never do.
Your Counter Strategy: Unless it’s something reasonable like a bunch of flowers for the pastor’s wife, don’t give to this sort of fund raising.
cont...
Part 3
ReplyDeleteHigh Pressure Offerings
Another way the pastor uses his inner-ring to extract cash, is via high pressure offering talks in the church services.
One of the church’s inner-ring will take the Sunday offering, which in these money focused churches can turn into a mini-sermon. These inner-ring members are competing against each other’s past high scores. At stake is their standing with the pastor and hence their standing in the church. If they rake in the cash then their position is secure, but if they score low then no matter what excuses they have they know the pastor will blame them.
In the extreme money focused churches it is made known who gave the most and who gave the least, and in these churches the giving will not be in secret but people will be expected to come up the front so that everyone can see how much they give. Or people will be watched to see if they put anything in the offering container as it is passed down the aisles.
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. – 2 Corinthians 9:7
Your Counter Strategy: If you feel you are being compelled to give then don’t give a penny, no matter how much pressure is applied.
Cathedral Building Wars
Like the cathedral building wars in the middle ages where cities and countries vied against each other to build the most impressive cathedral. The pastors of these money focused churches fight to own the most impressive church to top their rival pastors – their egos demand that they are the king of the heap.
The most impressive churches require the most magnificent buildings, the most professional entertainment in their services, the best church programs, and the best conferences, the best websites, the best radio and TV programs, and the most members. All this costs a lot of money.
And just like in the days of old these self anointed church kings seek to tax their subjects to fund their private war.
Understand that these cultic churches ultimately exist to serve their pastor’s insecure egos, and their congregation suffer under their madness. This type of church culture breeds a harsh environment where people are discarded as soon as they are no longer useful. This is a dysfunctional ethos entirely alien to that of Jesus’s teachings.
Your Counter Strategy: Don’t help fund these monuments to the pastor’s pride and prestige, these pet projects, these grandiose visions. Realize that these churches are not focused on Jesus, but are centered around the narcissistic pastor and what he desires most. Don’t be part of this game. Surely we are accountable to God to how we spend our money. Surely then it is our duty as Christians to give that money to true Godly works that bear real fruit for the Kingdom.
cont...
Part 4
ReplyDeleteExcessive Wages
The Bible teaches that the spiritual worker deserves to be paid:
I believe it is reasonable to assume that Paul the Apostle meant only fair wages, not excessive wages, and that Paul would have agreed with what Peter the Apostle wrote:
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. – 1 Peter 5:1-3
Obviously one of the ways greedy pastors can extract money from God’s people is via excessive wages. The amount of which they will often decide themselves, or have conferred on them by their inner-circle (via the church board, or the church wages review committee, for example).
No honest pastor would have a problem with his congregation knowing how much their church pays him, or at least what range his wage fell in, like say “between $50,000 and $60,000″. This is normal. Openness regarding the pastor’s stipend has been a practice of the Christian church for hundreds of years, and continues today. Only those pastors who have an excessive wage would be reluctant to let the amount become public knowledge.
If your pastor refuses to be open about his wage then be very suspicious. It is likely he knows that the amount would be considered excessive. If it is excessive, then watch him dodge the issue like a sweaty politician.
Be even more suspicious whenever you hear a pastor’s wage being justified by comparing him to a CEO. If you hear this CEO nonsense then you can instantly know two things: first, the pastor’s wage is massive; second, you are being scammed. A pastor is not a CEO no matter how big his church empire is; a CEO runs a for monetary-profit organization, a pastors serves the people of God – they are not the same thing.
By the way, if the pastor claims to be a CEO, then you must be a shareholder. Shareholders have full rights to the accounts, including how much their “CEO” is earning.
Your Counter Strategy: Find out how much your pastor is paid. If he will not reveal the information then stop giving to that church until it is revealed. Especially stop if you hear any of this “CEO” rubbish.
Perks
Expensive leased cars, holidays, clothing allowances, spending money, restaurant meals, hotels, flights, and expense accounts, are some of the perks demanded by these luxury smitten pastors.
Some say that if they are preaching the “prosperity gospel”, then they have to appear prosperous to “walk their talk”. But of course that is a deception. They are using God’s money to misrepresent how wealthy they are, to help prove their false teaching works. Despicable.
Your Counter Strategy: Stop giving money in protest, until the excessive perks are removed.
Nepotism (A family favorite!)
A church isn’t a family business you know; it is a family, but it’s not a business.
Are the pastor’s relatives high up in the church? Are they the ones with the most powerful positions? Then that is nepotism. A good church will choose the very best people for the job, while a bad church will reward those closest to the pastor with the lucrative positions of power.
If you see nepotism, then that is a sign that something is very wrong.
Your Counter Strategy: Yup, you guessed it – stop giving to that church until the pastor’s little family fiefdom is disassembled.
cont...
Part 5
ReplyDeleteTheir Fabricated Tithing Doctrine
This is the big daddy. This is their sacred cow. This is the beating heart of their evil empire. The crown jewel. The Death Star. The one ring to bill them all. The pot of gold. Their matrix (into which they want to plug you). Their Wizard of Oz. Their magic spell. Their special power. Their secret recipe with the eleven herbs and spices. Their Golden Goose. The very air upon which they breathe!
Question this doctrine and watch these money hungry pastors bare their fangs. This is a teaching that they will bear no compromise on. Tithing, or at least their own version of tithing, is their one true love.
Here are some bullet points about tithing that these money hungry pastors don’t want you to know:
The New Testament Church did not tithe. The New Testament does not teach tithing for Christians. Their favorite Malachi verses cannot be used for Christians since Christians are not under the law of Moses.
Abraham’s one off tithe of his war booty did not set up a precedent for Christians to regularly tithe their income.
The version of tithing they teach cannot be found in Scripture (see below).
The “Storehouse” in Malachi cannot be equated to your local church organization.
There are plenty of rich (money wise) Christians who do not tithe. This would be impossible if their version of tithing was true.
The New Testament teaching is that you decide how much to give, and there are no rules about where it goes. You cannot be compelled to give.
It may come as a surprise to learn that their tithing doctrine is a combination of twisted scriptures and wishful thinking, as opposed to solid Biblical exegesis reflecting a central thrust of New Testament teaching. Here is their tithing doctrine stated in a nutshell:
“Christians must give ten percent of their gross income only to their church organization. If they do, then God will bless them for any offerings they make to the church organization beyond this ten percent. But if they do not give ten percent gross, then they are stealing from God and God will curse them.”
There are variations of this teaching, and sometimes it is called a “principle”, but the above definition contains the core essence of this doctrine.
It is vital to grasp that tithing is not for Christians. Tithing was part of the old law (of Moses) which was fulfilled (completed) by Jesus. You know that Christians are not under the law of Moses don’t you?
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. – Romans 7:6
What is more, this tithing doctrine they teach isn’t found in either the New or Old Testament. Tithing in the old testament does not match what these pastors preach – this unique tithe teaching is of their own invention.
This is such an important subject that Cultwatch has a special website TithingDebate.com dedicated to setting Christians free from this fake doctrine. There are free books to download and articles to read. Make sure you read our article “Should you give? New Testament Giving Supported!”, because Cultwatch is not anti-giving. If you think tithing is for Christians today, then you need to read TithingDebate.com
cont....
Part 6
ReplyDeleteTip: If you are struggling to feed your family or buy them clothes, then understand that you do not need to give to the church. You can still do so if you choose, but you should not feel under compulsion since your family is more important. Also understand that if you are poor then that does not mean God is cursing you, or that you have done something wrong; this is an erroneous teaching these greedy men promote to guilt you into giving. Remember, your duty is to your family first. If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. – 1 Timothy 5:8
Tip: Churches that push this erroneous tithing doctrine will often try to enforce tithing via written agreements (called covenants), and also by monitoring what people give (so they can compel them to give more if they are not meeting the ten percent target). First, grasp that these “covenants” are illegitimate and not worth the paper they are printed on, because they contain false doctrine (like tithing) and set up the pastors as a false authority over you. God would not be party to a covenant that contains falsehoods, therefore God was not party to the covenant you were pressured to sign, therefore you are free from this burden. It is as if you never signed it. Second, recording what you give and using that information to pressure you to give more is wrong, the Bible implies that our giving is best done in secret so that only we and God know what we gave. Don’t go to a church where they monitor what you give. (note: some churches voluntarily let you record what you have given via a numbered envelope system for tax purposes. Done correctly, no one in the church will know what you gave. There is nothing wrong with this kind of recording.)
Your Counter Strategy: Stop giving to that church until they change their ways. That doesn’t mean to stop giving to Godly works, we would encourage you to give as the Holy Spirit prompts you and as you decide. But it is valid to protest false doctrine by refusing to fund the system that promotes that false doctrine.
In these pastor’s prosperity teaching, obeying the pastor and giving money are the two pillars necessary for a successful Christian life. If you sit back and think about it, you will quickly see what a con it is.
These men want to be at the head of everything, they want to dominate you, they want to be seen as the big man, and some even secretly desire adoration (almost worship). This is the opposite of true Christian leadership:
Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. – Mark 10:42-44
Threatening people with curses if they do not obey or donate is spiritual extortion. It is contrary to the nature of grace and the person of Jesus.
Your Counter Strategy: Don’t be afraid of these men. Ignore their bluster. Grow a backbone and stand up to them. And if you give, then give to honor God and not out of fear of punishment or greed for financial gain. Memorize this verse: Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. – 2 Corinthians 9:7
cont...
Part 7... Last one.
ReplyDeleteSummary
I believe many church goers would be shocked if they could comprehend the real attitude their pastor has towards them. From my experience with both the cults and these money focused churches, it is my impression that instead of being looked upon with love, these pastors see their congregation as farm animals to be milked.
It is my prayer that this article will set you free from this kind of spiritual bondage. I hope now you will be able to spot this counterfeit Christian life and be able to transition into a closer walk with Jesus; a walk built on love, trust and grace, not fear.
Realize that a number of churches follow the patterns that this article exposes. However there are many good churches who do not practice these methods. If you have been hurt by these practices then feel free to give up on these twisted money-focused environments, but please do not give up on Jesus.
Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. – 2 Corinthians 2:17. Therefore, can we conclude that men who peddle the word of God for profit are not sent from God?
Excerpts from this article have been taken from: http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html
Go here to see the full article.
There was information given about Brads long term affair with his sister in law - details about the money he had ripped off in Florida and was continuing to rip off at Pathways - and the suspicion of current extra marital affairs that were taking place now and needed to be investigated. This information came from a very credible source and was given to or fell in the hands of:
ReplyDeleteJim Bradford - Executive leader in the AG
Larry Liebe and his Presbyters.
Pathways Board.
Several Pathways staff members and AG Wisc District staffers.
Also, this information was first given to Brad so that he could do the right thing. He ran and hid like a school girl.
As for the others.
Jim Bradford did nothing because he was afraid that Brad would sue the AG.
Larry Liebe tried to get the AG ministry papers pulled from the person that gave the information.
JJ Eaton sent a very threatening letter from Pathways lawyers that threatened legal action.
Everyone else was silent.
Not one of these people except for Jim Bradford picked up the phone and talked to this person with the information.
That said, if these people are not honest with their constituents and release the information -- including the letter from JJ Eaton -- it will be released on the internet soon.
Personally I think it's time to make Brad sweat a little. Put the pressure on him by making your information public. Quite honestly I don't understand what's preventing you? If you have proof of stealing or embezzling and you don't turn it over to the proper authorities, you are equally as guilty as all the other shysters involved. It is time this nonsense ends. Put an end to Pastor Liebe's criminal behavior by making him accountable for the consequences of his actions! Get FBI involved if the IRS won't do anything. Make him sweat!!!
DeleteBrad is not an AG credential holder. He is not subject to the Constitution and By-laws of the AG. The Wisc AG has no authority over him. Pathways is not an AG church. Leave the AG out of this.
DeleteLeave the AG out of it??? YOU created this monster at North Central Bible College! Larry Liebe, who IS a AG CREDENTIALED holder, got Brad the job at Pathways knowing his embezzlement past AND helped to keep things quiet when the adultery charges quiet!!! ALSO, Roland Dudley and Paul Weis are AG CREDENTIALED PASTORS, AND they too kept things quiet. NONE of these AG CREDENTIALED leaders stepped up to put an end to Brad Liebe's vial reign as pastor of Pathways. In ADDITION, several other AG CREDENTIALED PASTORS and presbyters were notified of the Brad situation and NONE of them stepped up either!!! Not to mention that Steve Tripp is also an AG CREDENTIALED PASTOR and was on Pathways board and works at the WI AG District Office. OH YES... and let's not forget who Brad learned all of this from... none other than Dan Betzer, another AG CREDENTIALED PASTOR. Seems several of your AG credentialed pastors are corrupt, not just Brad! DOES THAT CONCERN YOU????? IDIOT!
DeleteInteresting article about the "One Man Pastor" model of church governance and why it is unbiblical and doesn't work.
ReplyDeletehttp://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/lie-3.html
Another interesting article about why pastors lie:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jamesrussellpublishing.biz/whypastorslie.html
Tithing in the New Testament church is unbiblical and unnecessary. Giving voluntarily is, of course, biblical but tithing per se anymore is not. It was a part of the old testament law/covenant. Here's a great article explaining this:
ReplyDeletehttp://truthforfree.com/html/article_Tithing-and-Clergy-Salaries.html
What are you waiting for?? Release the truth already! Turn your papers over to the D.A. Let them investigate. If Brad stole money again, it's time to put him in jail. He'll do it again if you don't!
ReplyDeleteLOL ... not only did Larry Liebe have the nerve to try and pull the AG creditionals of the person that had information on his son ... he demanded an apology to his wife from this guy. Needless to say, no apology was given to these horrible people.
ReplyDeleteThe arrogance of these people. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree!
If Larry, JJ Eaton, and the Board and staff of Pathways don't come clean soon, they will read all of their emails online.
Total side note. Just want to ask an obvious question.
ReplyDeleteWho screws their own brother or sister in law. EEEEEWWWWHHHH!!!!! And how clueless are the spouses to not notice this happening right under their nose.
After all, it wasn't a one time thing. This was a LONG TERM AFFAIR.
Who are these people?
And to think ......... they are your ministry leaders?!?!
I have a friend on staff at Pathways that had access to some of the information about what went on between Brad and Kelly (his sister in law). It made me sick to my stomach. It was perverted. To think that all of their parents knew and did nothing- Dudley, Weis, Liebe - this also turns my stomach. To think that the AG knew and still let Pathways be pastored by a wolf also turns my stomach.
ReplyDeleteYou people please just leave ministry. Apologize! Repent! Please don't let another soul be lost because of what you done or covered up!!!
Brad Liebe and Kelly Dudley are used by Satan to tear apart God's special work. They do it in the name of God. They do it under the disguise of religion. They do it under the umbrella of religious parents with high level ministry positions. But it is still evil. And it needs to stop right now!
ReplyDeleteThey look spiritual. They sound spiritual. But look at what they have done.
They both kill that which is spiritual. Meanwhile their spouses don't pay attention. They are also religious but must maintain a loveless marriage for the sake of keeping ministry positions. Their parents turn away because to reveal the truth would also hurt their ministry careers.
A very intriguing guy once said "The truth will set you free".
Time for these people to be exposed for what they are. Time for them to stop playing church. God's people deserve better.
The letter should be released before Tuesdays mtg. Show where our church monies were going and what is behind the spin master- JJ Eaton.
ReplyDeleteWhat letter? Released where?
DeleteThe comments section on this page is filling up again already. Please post your comments on the new page starting now. Spiritual Wisdom is Good - Part 5. Here's the link:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=7209509455844671842#editor/target=post;postID=8331273258078080028
Brad Liebe is back in Ft. Myers with a new business. KK and B Financial Services for Seniors. Just Google the above to get his web site. You must call or email the insurance commissioner for the state of Florida and file a complaint. He can not be allowed to take advantage of anyone else.
DeleteDave Johnston Neenah, Wi
Can't find the above blog.
ReplyDeleteOK, try this link instead. Hopefully that will take you right to Part 5:
ReplyDeletehttp://wisdomseekerprov4.blogspot.com/2013/05/spiritual-wisdom-is-good-part-5.html
OK, I just tried this link (above) and it took me right to the proper page for Part 5. So.....please post all your comments on this new page as of now. Here's the link again:
ReplyDeletehttp://wisdomseekerprov4.blogspot.com/2013/05/spiritual-wisdom-is-good-part-5.html