Friday, April 12, 2013
Spiritual Wisdom is Good - Part 3
Apparently, there is no more room for comments on the Spiritual Wisdom is Good - Part 2 blog page. I have posted everything that has come in today, Friday, April 12th, 2013 (and everything before that too) but it is not showing up. That happened last year also when the original posting's comments section got full and I had to start a Part 2 page in order to handle more comments. I don't know if I'll be able to retrieve the posts that have been "lost" today or not. They must be "out there" somewhere but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get them posted on this page or not. I will try. PLEASE DO NOT POST ANY MORE COMMENTS ON THE PART 2 PAGE BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT SHOW UP. Post them on this page instead. I went thru the Part 2 page and tried deleting some of the earlier comments to see if that would help but it didn't really change anything so far. So.......if you still have a copy of whatever you posted today (and don't see on the Part 2 page), please repost it to this Part 3 page. I will publish it there instead.
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I am of the younger crowd, 24, and don't understand some things about the way Pathway Church works. My neighbor goes to the church and he don't know. In my church, the pastor is elected by the people, then the board is elected by the people. Our pastor is accountable to the board and the board accountable to the people. Above that is the mother organization that can step in. In a "independent" church, who owns the property, and assets of the church? If this bad problem brings the church tumbling down and the building is eventually sold, who does the money go to? There is no mother organization. I heard some independent churches are owned by the pastor and his family, under their own corporate ministry. I heard of one independent church in Texas that was closed one Sunday and the people found the church had been sold and the pastor left with the money because the building and property was in his name. Does Pastor Liebe still have credit cards? Does he own his cars or do they belong to the church? Does he own his houses or did the church co-sign? Does he own things in his office? Does he own any of the church building? Does he get a severance pay? Health insurance? Has he signed any loans that will have to be paid by the church people? We visited Pathways many times but decided to join another church that was smaller. I wondered at that time how the business of the church was handled. I still don't understand how a man can come in as a pastor and do and take whatever he wants and nobody can question what he does, if that is what might of happened. I never heard of a pastor that tells the board what to do and make people leave if they ask questions. I'm sorry this has happened and sure hope the church can make it through.
ReplyDeleteYes, new comments will appear here now as long as the person making the comment posts them here on this Part 3 page and NOT on the old Part 2 page. If anyone made a comment today (Friday, Apr. 12th) on the Part 2 page and it did not show up, please copy & paste it to this Part 3 page instead and it will show up here. The old page was full and would not take any more comments.
ReplyDeleteGetting the meeting was easy, I called and met with someone the next day. According to what I was told they discovered it while at a pastor's meeting in Atlanta. They confronted him when they returned and then then addressed the board with their findings. The board suspended Brad. They contacted a outside group and then they released Brad. An outside group (not associated with Pathways or AG) is now at the church and are reviewing everything. Their will be changes to way the board is set, who is on the board, and the power of a senior pastor.
ReplyDeleteI did not discuss the budget as I review it frequently on the website and it is similar to other churches on similar size.
This post is in response to a post on page 2. It is as follows:
DeleteI agree with some of the above posters. Go to the staff and ask questions. I did and they took the time to answer my questions completely. Not one question was unanswered. The staff seem more open now then ever. If you are still worried they won't address your concerns, at least try. If they do then great. If not you have all the answers you need.
A response to it which caused me to type the above reply:
This is very encouraging to hear that you had a positive experience. Please elaborate on what you found out. You mention asking the staff questions and getting answers... "completely". Please share with the rest on what you asked and what you were told.
Did you ask how long the staff and board knew Brad was having an affair?
Did you ask if there is any concern that money might have been diverted to places and to people that are not appropriate uses of the congregation's money?
Did you ask for a full audit to disclose why the weekly budget has jumped to $30,000 per week to run the church?
I'm so glad you got answers. Now please share them... it might help many of us get to a better place.
How was it discovered that brad was having an affair? Were they seen together? Are there photos or emails? And who is the second woman? Is she from The Appleton area? Is she a part of Pathways?
DeleteWhy is this relevant to you? Your desire for details is a little troubling. How far will you go on this quest. It appears like you want a gossip magazine to come in and cover the story. It was discovered. What else do you really need? This is not a game of clue where you win an award for figuring out where, and with whom...
DeleteDoesn't anyone else want the truth? All these secrets and cover-ups, he said/she said comments are troubling. If these churches would just be forth-coming about what is going on, then there would be no room for rumors or even this blog. But the truth is if anyone steps forward within the church or the AG district to prove anything you opening yourself up to being fired. All I want is to know the truth, is that so bad?
DeleteI think we all want the truth!!! How he was caught and her name is not relevant at all. Do you want all the names, places and dates?? For all of you in the valley I have one thing to say GO TALK TO STAFF OR BOARD MEMBERS. My experience was vary favorable, but I don't intend to post anything specific here.
DeletePlease clarify with evidence what Steve, and/or Larry did that would require them to "go away". You sound like you have a personal vendetta? Did one of them steal your girl way back when or something? Post something with credibility, not baseless accusations. Speak for yourself, and not for an entire body of people, unless of course, you have been elected to do so. Your feelings about the entirety of people waiting with "baited breath" is inaccurate and makes it sound like you have read to many Twighlight novels...Go Team Edward... I guess children speak like children.
ReplyDeleteYou make it sound as if this mythical email is so damning. Most forums would make you prove your source or delete your comments/ban you. If there is a real email, post it. Put up or quiet down.
ReplyDeleteHow is the wrongdoing of the son the wrongdoing of the father? Brad has been fired. The issue has been resolved. Why try to burn the whole town? Superintendant Liebe did not do anything wrong. IF you have legitimate proof that he did something wrong, post it, put the proof into the hands of the proper people, or stop smearing his name.
ReplyDeleteThe "issue" is not resolved! The issue is lying, cheating and stealing. Larry and Steve Tripp have been a part of the lies! They knew everything that happened in Fort Myers and still lobbied to get Brad hired at PW. They knew about Brad's affair with Kelly Dudley since last summer and kept it quiet. It's unethical. I thought district officials and pastors are to be held above reproach? There is certainly enough here to make you question their motives and morals. Then again it seems as though the AG has always been lacking in ethics. It's a money hungry beast.
DeleteAccusation 1.
Delete"Larry and Steve Tripp have been a part of the lies!"
Prove this, other than heresy. Just making a statement does not make them guilty.
Accusation 2.
"They knew everything that happened in Fort Myers and still lobbied to get Brad hired at PW."
Do you have evidence of this. Do you have recorded phone calls, or copies of emails? Or are you going by the rumor mill. I am pretty sure neither of those gentleman had any hiring power at Pathways.
Accusation 3.
"They knew about Brad's affair with Kelly Dudley since last summer and kept it quiet."
How do you know this? Were you in a room with them where it was discussed? Did you yourself bring forth factual evidence to them to prove said affair? Do you have copies of incriminating evidence? What you are saying has no base. It would not stand in a courtroom, yet you throw it on the internet like it is truth. Your words are empty and spiteful.
Accusation 4.
"Then again it seems as though the AG has always been lacking in ethics. It's a money hungry beast."
This statement makes your motive clear and exposes you. For whatever past hurt, you have an axe to grind. I am sorry for your negative experience with the AG. Did you used to be a pastor with them? Did the "big bad district" get involved with your church?
Seriously, Brad was caught in morale failure. When there was evidence of the failure, he was dismissed. If you need a conspiracy theory go watch the old movie with Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson.
Classic Liebe response.... Denial.
DeleteI think the point is that the father is the enabler of the sons sin. And that perhaps these men are no longer trust worthy. At this point it appears they are doing more harm than good to our faith. They are causing many to fall back and question their faith. At this point, only pride keeps them in their positions. A very sad reality.
DeleteTo the one with the questions the answer to questions 1, 2 and 3 are yes I do have evidence. Will they be put on this page-no.
DeleteAG ministers are allowed to pastor and be on staff at non AG churches. It is common. The terminology of "allowed" is very interesting. Would you prefer more control over AG ministers in general, or just elected district officials?
ReplyDeleteTo reply to a question on the last page regarding being asked to keep quiet. I was never asked me to remain quiet.
ReplyDeleteI have chosen to not discuss my meeting on the internet due to the many people who are just looking to gossip and pull the church down. While their are some people who are members looking for answers, their are also many people looking to create drama.
If you are reading this and are seriously interested, reach out to someone.
^^^ Legit maturity. Thank you. I was challenged by this. I was hurt by this situation, and for a time caught up in all of the drama of this blog. I am realizing that more and more, I was caught up in a big gossip thread. God forgive me for my part in this gossip. I will be signing off now. I do not know if I will set up a meeting, but I will be moving on and praying for everybody involved.
DeleteFor your consideration, here is an interesting web site with some information that may help you process what is going on in the institutional church world today and how unbiblical most of it really is. It may help explain some of these goings on.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thebreadoflifefellowship.com/Home_Page.php
Information on the biblical or maybe not-so-biblical basis of tithing under the New Testament covenant.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thebreadoflifefellowship.com/The_Lie_of_Tithing.php
I think this is unfair criticism on Larry Liebe. He was not the one to hire Brad a Pathways. This was the church board that hired him. I think the criticism on Steve Tripp is justified. He was on the church board and as an official in the district office, he know what Brad had done in Florida. Steve, needed to be above reproach and never place himself in that position. I believe the A/G needs t revamp the way it does business. The Sr. Pastor at the A/G Church in Oshkosh was recently fired by the Board. The board never really came clean with the church about why and what compensation that was provided to him when they fired him. If I was ever fired, the company would not be giving me any money.
ReplyDeleteAs a Christian, I'm trying to understand how this blog is helping ANYTHING right now. What Brad did was wrong, and he has brought much pain upon himself, his family, and of course, the church. We need to pray for all of them. God is a big God and capable of taking what Satan meant for evil and using it for good. I just don't see how the continual gossip is helping the cause of Christ. I would encourage you, Wisdom Seeker, to read some of these verses: http://www.openbible.info/topics/gossip and decide for yourself if it time to close the comments and ask people to pray that God would restore Brad, restore his family, restore the Church and all those hurt by this. I hope you will consider this. I say it respectfully and not condoning what has happened. If you choose to keep it open, I hope you will explain what purpose it serves. I would like to understand your viewpoint.
ReplyDeleteI just found out about this blog a few days ago and really cannot believe the amount of "anonymous" messages. People are so much more bold behind a keyboard. As a pastor affiliated with the Assemblies of God I can tell you that since I have known Larry Liebe, he has been very kind to me. Fact of the matter is I have known Larry since I was a teenager and now I am 39. Steve Tripp and I have known each other for 15+ years. We have always gotten along as well. I firmly believe though that if you have issue, put your name on your comment. At the very least give them a call. Larry has had to guide me a couple of times for things I put up on a blog and I am thankful for that.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Brad? What's done is done. I have nothing really to say on that subject other than Brad, if you are reading this....we at the Adams' household love you bro. Some may say this was a fall from grace....it really is a fall to grace. You have great parents that I am sure are loving you through this. I also want you to know that we love you as well bro. Dinner...my treat...wheelhouse. Don't walk through this alone...your best days are still ahead.
Anonymous commenters? Man up and sign your name.
Bob Adams
Classic 'Good Old Boy Network' reply, Bob.
DeleteI'd like to add to translate it as to how many others actually interpret your reply.
Hey Brad. Never mind those saying bad things about you. Hey it's just a bump in the road of life. Those people in Florida and Wisconsin just don't know you like I do.
Those people that asked you for guidance during some of the most difficult times in their life, well they got it from the best - you, buddy! You told them what they wanted to hear. Not from what you have done or are doing. Atta boy!
Hey I remember you saying in many sermons about when you first move up here and how you said you didn't have enough money and you had to make a decision whether to buy milk or a candy bar for your boy. Boy that was only 4 years ago.
But look at how far you've come. BMW's, Suburbans, a $700,000 ranch with 50 acres in Waupaca, a kid in a private college, all kids now have all of the best gadgets. Great vacations. Wow!
All on a humble pastors salary!
The Loooord i$$$$$$ Goooood.
Hey you're still all right with me. Call me and I'll help you with your next gig. I will make sure your best days are still ahead.
And hey, as for being repentant - no problem. I've got a direct line to God and he says - what's done is done, right?
That is how it came across to me and many others.
Any wonder that people are so dis-alusioned with the Church.
Easy to say man up when you have the Good Old Boys Network behind you.
As for the anonymous posts, I will reveal my name on every post if the Church stops being anonymous with the information and financials.
Man up? Really?
DeleteHows this sound? Brad – man up. Board – man up. All others that knew about this and didn’t’ say anything – man up.
Say this to the person that lied to thousands, deceived so many of us, stole hundreds of thousands from us, deceived his family and his Churches.
Say this to the enablers.
Don't chide us. There has been ABSOLUTELY NO RESPONSE OF REMORSE FROM HIM!!!!!!!
Wow!
Dear Bob..
ReplyDeleteMan up? Offensive. And, you're a pastor in Waupaca? As a pastor, you condone one of your colleagues being removed from his church because he had an affair? Brad actually did a "fall to grace" for hurting his family and abandoning the folks who went to Pathways church? Guess where I will never go to church?? The church where Bob Adams preaches. Please, please, do not come and fill-in at Pathways.
To the other readers:
A blog is designed to allow for all view points. It is a free forum and therefore, allows for comments to get off track.
I don't know Larry Liebe and I don't know Steve Tripp. I also know very little about Brad Liebe's time in Fort Myers other then what he has shared in past homilies. Each time he brought it up, he cried.
What I do know is a church has been abandoned. In a few minute speech during a weekend service, church goers learned their church was in incredible turmoil. And, it was expected that the few-minute speech plus a homily by Lance's father (which was quite good.. a bit scattered, but the point was there) would get everyone to simply forgive and move on. Even more offensive than Bob telling us to "man up". Do the leaders of Pathways think their parishioners are that stupid? Naive? That we'd just blindly say.. OK, that's it??
We should not have to request one-on-one meetings. It's the weekend and I'm hopeful that between last weekend & this weekend.. the Pathways leadership has revisited its' game plan for dealing with this situation.
Yea, you are right. That would be a terrible way to spend a weekend. Instead, go to an online, anonymous blog forum, because that is where you are going to get your answers? If not man up, how about grow up?
ReplyDeleteI've spent a lot of years listening to a pastor at Pathways (Brad) that has little or no morals.
DeleteSpending time on this blog is at least as good as sitting through a false prophets sermon.
first of all, this will be my FINAL POST as i am looking forward to the Sunday service and if I get no answers and its business as usual, I WILL NEVER STEP FOOT in PATHWAYS CHURCH AGAIN. AS FOR BOB ADAMS COMMENT, WOW! (WHAT A UNPROFESSIONAL PATHETIC BLOG ON YOUR PART)
ReplyDeleteI HOPE EVERYTING GETS STAIGHTENED OUT THIS WEEKEND AND WE CAN ALL MOVE ON! I SURE WOULD MISS THE MUSIC TEAM- Awesome
I attended the service earlier this evening. Pastor David Brickley gave the message helping us refocus our attention on our King, Jesus. Yes, Lance briefly addressed the Brad issue and had all Board members and pastors stand up so we could talk with them after the service...then we collectively moved forward. You know, God will overturn and overturn until he comes whose right it is, as the Bible tells us. Clearly, Brad was not the right one and has been overturned. I honestly wasn't expecting much tonight but was uplifted by the service. Kudos to Lance and David...they're stepping up beautifully. The last song really brings us back to the core of our love of God. Well done, Pathways.
ReplyDeleteUntil he comes whose right it is????? What does that mean?
ReplyDeleteI would really like to know who and how financial transactions are approved before i give anymore tithe. Is it true there is an independent company looking at everything? On a different note...i will continue to pray for the liebe family. can anybody just give some insight to Jana? I pray she is safe and "handling" these issues the best she can.
ReplyDeleteYou stopped tithing to Gods Church long ago.
DeleteYou have been giving to Brad's cookie jar and the board's church.
Brad had full charge of what was spent where. I know accounting and financing and he could have easily changed accounts around.
The board only looks at monthly statements.
All that needs to be done to make me out a liar is to show us the books. Or have an independent audit. Full disclosure.
Some fabrication in this blog, but a LOT of truth here.
If we're not going to be given the truth, it's Biblical not to follow it. Ever heard of blind faith? It's in the Bible.
If brad did take money that he was not supposed to, this is his second job in a row that he did this.
Many Psychologists would call that predatory tendencies. What a great pastoral trait!
Go ahead board, make me out a liar!
Does anybody else wonder if people are deliberately posting inflammatory comments on this blog in order to destroy the credibility of the information contained here? I read some of these over the top, gossipy, rumor spreading comments and I think, people can't be that stupid naturally can they?
ReplyDeleteWow...I jumped back on here this morning and saw someone posting under my name. Very classy. The one with the picture is me (my account). Anyway, yes it was my post and I am speaking to the character of those two men and I have known. We all have our own opinions and I wish they were respected. This is the last post for me on this thread. Way too much hurt and bitterness on this page.
ReplyDeleteI would appreciate it if the page moderator would remove the post using my name. That is pretty much a whole new low for this page (not the moderators fault).
If anyone recorded the service this morning would mind posting it on You Tube so those of us you were unable to attend can see it. Thanks ever do much.
ReplyDeleteHere's an interesting perspective explaining how religious leadership positions are very attractive to charismatic criminals and how the church deliberately goes out of their way to protect these thieves.
ReplyDeleteIf a person such as a businessman or politician is caught embezzling funds they are fired or kicked out of office by those that they answer to. Charges are typically brought against them and the are fined and sent to prison.
Contrast this to what happens when a pastor is caught embezzling funds from a church. The church will do anything and everything to cover it up quietly if they can. They will go out of their way to protect the criminal for 2 reasons. #1: If the people find out, they will likely stop attending and if they do stay they might not tithe, likely resulting in the death of that religious organization. (I hesitate to call groups that behave in this way "churches.") #2: If the government finds out that an individual has taken money from a tax exempt organization for personal gain, the IRS has the right to revoke the tax exempt status of the religious organization. This would likely result in the death of that organization.
So in the case of a "church," the leadership has every motivation in the world to hide the embezzlement from everyone and anyone. If the truth comes out they lose no matter what. Thus, they protect the "pastor" at all costs. Criminals know this. They know that if they can work their way into a leadership position they have access to free money until they get caught. And when they do get caught, they don't care because NOTHING happens to them. The only protection the church has from their leaders is to hope that they are good men and women. In the case of Pathways, they already knew that Brad had disqualified himself from the Biblical definition of what is required to be a leader. They hired him anyway. Their "church" was struggling at the time and they knew that Brad knew how to get people and money flowing into a church. They took a calculated risk and in doing so stopped becoming a church and started becoming Brad's personal piggybank. Is this an organization that you want to be part of?
The truth can be stranger than fiction .... here is the truth...
ReplyDeleteEarly fall - Sept/Oct - These people were given information about Brad's affair with good evidence and suspicion that it or another affair was still going on.
Jim Bradford, Greg Mundis, Richard Hammer - all Assembly of God.
Arni Jacobson - Grace international.
Pathways Board
Larry Liebe and all his presbyters.
The Dudley, Weis families.
The responses were .... The AG boys could not pursue the information because of fear of lawsuit.
Arni Jacobson - no response.
Pathways board - JJ Eaton hired a lawyer and said any further contact would result in legal action to the person with the information.
Larry Liebe - became an arrogant bully that covered for his son.
This is all documented. If you are a pathways member, ask your board. If you are in Larry's district, ask your presbyter. If you are AG - you will never get a response from Hammer and Bradford .... my advice is don't be AG
So our tithe money was used to pay for lawyers to intimidate and cover up our pastors blatant sin? How disturbing. Makes me sick to my stomach. JJ Eaton needs to go. As of yesterday.
DeleteThank you for some solid information!
DeleteThis is seriously sickening behavior of humans, let alone PASTORS!!!! Oh the webs we weave! Shame in all involved. You truly have done more harm than good to our Christian faith. It's time for some good people to step up and do the right thing. Remove these men from leadership and start over with real men of God!! It should also be known that Larry Liebe has personal relationships with all mentioned above. He clearly should be held accountable for enabling this facade of lies. He really has enabled the sins of his son Brad. What kind of father causes such suffering to his family and innocent church goers???
DeleteThis is so sad! I can understand the board wanting to keep everything hushed. What a lose, lose situation for the church and a win, win situation for the "sheep-in-wolfs-clothing" Pastor.
ReplyDeleteThere needs to be a shake up at the board level. Can anyone tell me how people are appointed to the Board at Pathways? What are they responsible for, who manages them and keeps them accountable? How long is a term? And when people leave and they are replaced is that made known?
From what I have known, the board members are "hand picked" after a very loose nomination process and I doubt there's any accountability. I think JJ runs the show and others are just along for the ride. JJ has been on the board since Pathways was started. Don't boards usually have term conditions? This is all so sad. But I don't doubt it a bit. People that have brought legitimate concerns in the past have been told to leave the church and if they step foot on the property, authorities would be called. Smells pretty rotten to me.
DeleteHow can anyone defend this behavior? How can anyone defend Brad, Larry or JJ? If you continue to tolerate it you are encouraging it and you too shall be held accountable one day! That goes for all the AG district officials, the Pathways board, Grace International, Steve Tripp, and all family members and friends that knew the truth and made a pact to hide it. Clearly even Jana can be held accountable now. This is a horribly sad realization, but it is the truth. The only ones to defend the Liebe's are the ones who have something to lose. And really, at this point these people can no longer do anything for you. They have lost all credibility. If you side with them, consider yourself a part of the sin. I know this is hard to fathom, and no one wants to believe our loved ones are capable of such horrific accusations, but this information is not made up or fabricated. It is not a conspiracy or a witch hunt. It is the truth. The truth hurts deeply. But praise God the truth is finally out!!! No amount of lawyers can stop it now. Sorry guys.... You're done.
ReplyDeleteNicely put.
DeleteMy wife and I were at Pathways with our 17 year old daughter when Brad's affairs were made public.
ReplyDeleteShe has and always will have uphill struggles. With much prayer and faith she has become a beautiful young confident woman.
She wept the whole service.
Her heart was ripped out and stomped on. Her faith is shaken.
Way to go Brad - great job. Nice work board. And you too Brad supporters - wow... There aren't words to describe the pain.
Lots of praying to do/lots to repair.
I heard about this blog from a friend of mine. I understand people feel deceived and are hurt from all that has happen in Fort Myers AG & Pathways, and feel Brad should be held accountible for his actions. But I hear such hatred from people that profess to be Christians,that I don't understand. I get that Brad was a pastor held to higher accountiblity & that he has made mistakes & needs restoration in his life which means being responsible for his actions and accepting the consequences. I get it... really I do. You want justice, you feel betrayed...so go to the people in leadership of those churches and share you concerns. If I saw Brad I would give hug him and let him know I'm praying for him and his family. Not because I'm close to him or his family because he is a brother in the Lord. I chose to forgive him because the anger only hurts me. Focus on forgiveness and find true healing. Don't turn to idle gossip whether there is truth in it or not.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think he's a believer? His flowery words, his jokes,or the way he turns on his tears? Brother, these were not "mistakes", these were calculated in-your-face-Im-the-top dog-Ill-do-whatever-the-hell-I-want choices. You feeling sad for Brad Liebe is really sad. What do you think the Apostle Paul would have said to him and the congregation? You do not understand the gravity of the sin and attitude of the embezzlement in Ft. Myers. This is a wolf....no longer qualified to shepherd God's people. Can he be forgiven? yes. Can he serve in a pastoral role again? No. Im tired of Christians giving undue sympathy to adulterous pastors and thieves. Next we'll hear the Brad has a sex "disease" and cant help himself. He helps himself to God's money to further his hedonism...and cant help himself.
DeleteI don't feel an abused woman can be held completely accountable. All Jana knows is ministry and the way a minister's wife should behave. You are to be in subjection to your husband as he is your cloak. You basically mind him and never question him. A good minister's wife holds her head up and cries alone. When one is held down for so long it is hard to make a new beginning. Although it's obvious that Jana has known many things all along, she wouldn't dare open up and go against her husband. It's a sort of blackmail by her husband, the church and her family. She must forgive seventy times seven. God does not direct us to forgive seventy times 8. She has done that. If there is anyone in this that could have a powerful ministry in the future, it would be Jana. She could show, then encourage many women. if she has the strength to do as she must. I do not believe Jana was a partner in any of the illegal or immoral goings on. I look forward to seeing what Jana Liebe decides to do with her life.
ReplyDeleteI have been a memeber at pathways church for 2 years. I was ministered by Brad and I trusted him. I learned about his fort meyers problems last summer and confronted him about it, he was dismissive. I called to fort meyers florida to speak to the lead pastor down there and I am still investigating. I am deeply saddened by Randersons appointing of Brad to our church and even more upset that JJ and the board let this happen. the truth is Brad NEVER should have been allowed teh chance to be in a position of power, I feel betrayed and deeply hurt by this. I love Jesus and I wish to serve Him I am sad about Larry Liebes lack of discipline with his son.
ReplyDeletehere is a quote from joeipirkeys blog and it explains quite nicely how this really is a scandal.:
Brad Liebe’s father is Larry Liebe. Larry Liebe, several years ago, was voted in as the Wisconsin district superintendent. Until that time, Larry had served as the District Youth Director.
Upon Brad’s taking the position at Pathways Larry Liebe and Steve Tripp (District Youth Director in the AG), both district leaders, started attending Pathways~ a non-AG church. Steve Tripp is reported to have served on the board at Pathways at one time, and was featured in promotional videos for the church.
Larry Liebe and Steve Tripp are in violation of the AG bylaws but have also, in effect condoned Brad’s previous affair and money embezzlement in FL by following him to Pathways. It is hard for me to fathom that those who oversee Brad and Steve could possibly agree that while they represent and shepherd the AG denomination in our area, a blind eye should be turned to attending a non-AG church whose pastor was disciplined and removed from the Assemblies of God. The message this speaks to the body at Pathways is that everything is ok and gives Brad a level of credibility that he simply does not have.
AG bylaws Article IX, Section 9-10:
Section 9. Ministry in a Non-Assemblies of God Church
Ministers shall not be limited or restrained from entering open doors to preach this Pentecostal message, so long as they retain Assemblies of God doctrine, standards of holiness, proper attitudes, and proper ministerial conduct without compromise. Inasmuch as unity is a vital principle for growth and spiritual development of the Assemblies of God Fellowship, it is essential that we recognize our relationship to each other and that we practice Christian cooperation in all our pastoral, evangelistic, missionary, and local church work.
We recommend therefore that our ministers confer with district council officials before engaging in ministry in any church group or organization not affiliated with the Assemblies of God so as to ascertain whether such ministry might result in confusion or misunderstandings. If the minister does not have district approval, he or she shall be expected to refrain from conducting services for the church. Ministers who violate this principle shall be subject to discipline.
Section 10. An Improper Attitude Toward Those Removed From the Fellowship
In order to render effective decisions made in the interest of proper discipline and for the protection of our assemblies, all who hold credentials, and local churches holding certificates of affiliation, shall refrain from taking an attitude toward offenders that would tend to nullify or set at naught the solemn verdict of those entrusted with this responsibility. Those who fail to support said verdict shall be subject to reprimand or, if persisted in, appropriate discipline.
I agree brad and his family are in my prayers... may jesus heal what was broken...satan got a hold of brad and I forgive...
DeleteBrad's Twitter account.
ReplyDeleteKids mentioned 124 times
Espresso mentioned 74 times
Wife mentioned 0 times
Interesting observation. Even more interesting is the fact that this point was made to the board in the information that was given last fall concerning Brads affair with Kelly D. There was suspicion that Brad was still involved in an affair and one of the points made was the twitter account. Of course, JJ Eaton, Larry Liebe, and the silence of AG leadership led to a crash
DeleteI don't think he "gets" it. I doubt he understands his situation. He's like a little boy, but with a split personality. I think he's clueless and knows he can talk himself into a great position eventually. Who knows, he always bounces back.
DeleteBrad Liebe is a classic sociopath.
DeleteBased on what has been reported here, I am wondering did Pastor Gary essentially fall on his sword & leave Pathways after it looked like nothing would be done about Brad's actions? According to this blog, the affair was known about and reported to the board last fall. I assume that means the pastors knew then, too?
ReplyDeleteI just don't know why Gary left or where he went. Anyone know??
This church takes in a LOT of money. There are other local churches with similar membership and can run on about 1/3 the money.
ReplyDeleteCheck it out...
http://archive.elca.org/ScriptLib/RE/Trendnet/cdsTrendNet.asp?Id=E19FB8E99384B7DFA6A6CED0AEB199F07CE0E2E5C7CCBFD8C1EDD1A69AB38EBDDEABE8E0A4CA9C8D
My question is this - If other churches can run on 1/3 of the giving, then what is happening to the extra $1,000,000 per year? That's a Million Bucks - every year !!!!
Something is REALLY strange there.
If read correctly this church has an average weekly attendance in 2012 of 650. (It has 1883 members but only 650 on average attend weekly). Pathways is approaching 3000 in weekly attendance. Not quite the same size church.
DeleteIn essence, Pathways 4-5 x the attendance, but only operates on 2x the tithes. This means the data you provided actually disproves your argument.
Once the audit is completed we will see if there are any money issues.
If anyone wants to see Pathways Financials, it's pretty simple. Go to the church website, click giving, and then financials. You can download your own PDF copy. Or just use this link http://www.pathwayschurch.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/June-4-2012-financials.pdf
DeleteTruth Seeker, Those are not financials. They are words and numbers typed on a page. If they WERE accurate, it would be a scary scenario. Just that simple report doesn't jibe -salaries, fringes, fixed assets, insurance... In my business we do not spend twice what we take in. These little papers are meaningless. Show me a line item audited financial report done by an independent CPA and I can understand that.
DeleteThe financial posted is 16 months old.
DeleteIt doesn't show what went where.
I could easily fabricate one just like it.
It's very easy to mis-approapriate funds in businesses - it's done so very often. Most have never been caught. I have had to put checks in place where I work to eliminate any chance of this happening. and it must be done when dealing with any amount of money involving people.
That's LESSON 1 in business.
The real proof is the audit. First word of an audit here. Who will pick the company to do the audit? The board? They are the ones to have created this mess.
If the board picks the audit or another Church - the audit is a waste of time.
This all seems fishy. We were told by JJ Eaton that financials are not provided to the church body. We are to "trust" them, that they are doing the right thing. Seems like it's difficult to know what is right or wrong anymore. They (the board) have made so much gray area around everything. That way they don't have to give any direct answers and continue to pull the wool over our eyes and make us believe everything is OK. They (the board)needs to go!
DeleteBrad was abusing the money at Pathways .... period! Furthermore ... let's look at how much money was given to the Dudley's (sis n law - affair), and Liebe's (daddy - district superintendent) over the last few years.
DeleteJJ Eaton was more in bed with Brad than Kelly Dudley .... he needs to not only be removed from the board ... he needs to be removed from the church.
You are so right about JJ.
DeleteBrad has been caught and dealt with. Now it's time to deal with JJ. Let's hold a church meeting where this can be brought into the light and not controlled by half truths and a smooth tongue. JJ is every bit the manipulator Brad is. DO NOT TRUST HIM!
If you heard the message where the church was told you will not hear-"the board or "we:. You will hear a lot of "I's". Very telling. He loves the power, control and attention.
He like Brad is not being detected by many. But ask yourself good questions. He had to know about the stealing of money. It was confessed before 2000 people. He had to know about the affair it was all over the internet. He had to see the opulent lifesyle. The list goes on. He enabled this. He was Brads enforcer when it came to shutting people up. Hold him and the board accountable.
We need an all church meeting! If there is nothing to hide then they will have done their job by giving us the full story. If there is something to hide they will control the conversation and insist on one on ones only.
I picked the church at random. It’s a local church – sorry local church - luck of the draw.
ReplyDeleteRandom church = 650 avg attendance. Giving = $770M = $1,180 giving per yr / attendee.
Pathways = 3,000 avg attendance. Giving = $2Mill = $667 giving per yr / attendee.
Pathways pushes hard for people to give 10%. I know we have. And know many others that do.
This creates a curious observation. If pathways members actually gave an amount similar to the random church, then the amount shown should be much higher – about $1.5 million dollars higher.
Did members give more than stated? Only a true audit will show.
So... We're going from "wow, this church is making so much more than other churches," to "wow, this church is reporting so much less and must be hiding something." Can we pick one argument and stick with it.
ReplyDeleteUnless of course we're just stretching to find something. It's being to look like many of the Pathways people are looking to heal and are seeking answers from sources with the answers, while others are interested in online rants.
I'm out of this site. It's becoming full of the tin foil hat crowd.
I'm sure the people in Florida took off their tin foil hats when they found that $700,000 was taken by brad over a 2 year period.
DeleteThey only went 2 years back.
The numbers just don't make sense.
The people in Florida posted lots of warnings in the previous pages about this.
Actually...the auditors in FL. stopped at $700,000 and felt more had been stolen. The FAOG board was highly encouraged to stop the audit at that point because it would cost the church more money to dig deeper. Truth from the inside.
Delete"If the board picks the audit or another Church - the audit is a waste of time."
ReplyDeleteYou present more questions, but no real solution. Who should pick the auditor? If the board or another church doesn't choose the auditor who would. Why don't you approached the board and offer an auditor? I mean, I understand it's easier to just grip on here then do anything meaningful,
Boy, if you think about it just a tiny bit, it's really common sense. Don't ask a local church - the liebes are too well connected. Ask the Florida church what they did. That church has no interest in pathways other than to do what is right.
DeleteAs for just griping than doing anything meaningful. I sat through hundreds and hundreds of sermons given by a liar, cheat and embezzler, so this is at least as good of a use of my time.
All things must be put in the open.
No problem. The IRS will provide the auditor at no cost.
DeleteThe IRS. Perfect.
DeleteHow can we make it happen?
Just call them.
DeleteThis is in response to April 15, 9:48 post regarding the email trail and any other post referring to communications the staff or board may have received. I am leaving Larry Liebe out of this as he does not have any association with Pathways other than being Brad's father. I say to all of YOU if there is a document trail "produce it or be quiet". I have talked to people on the board and staff and none of them have volunteered this information, and they will not unless someone can provide proof. A lot of people think there was a coverup by the board, so I say simply PROVE IT WITH DOCUMENTS NOT RUMORS. I have attended Pathways since before Brad arrived and I simply would like someone to tell the truth. If you have access to documents that prove this email them to me. My email address is CHARLRSWAYNE@YAHOO.COM. I will ask very specific questions of the board and expect truthful answers. If not I can produce the proof. If you can't provide the proof then quit posting these useless rumors.
ReplyDeleteIf you talked to the board and they told you there is no email paper trail warning about the Kelly Dudley affair and the suspicion of an ongoing affair - they are not being honest. For legal reasons, the emails can't be shared accept from the board.
DeleteIt really doesn't matter anyway .... Liebe is gone. If you want to get rid of 2 more corrupt characters - go after JJ Eaton and Larry Liebe.
Word to the wise --- Pastor Randerson is the the good guy in this whole story.
Pastor Randerson is Not the good guy in this mess. He is a major part of the mess. He recommended Brad and told the board at Pathways that Brad has some baggage but he checked it out and does not have any concerns. The church was in major financial trouble for buying a building they could not afford, furnishing it with flat screens all over the place as well as ton of sofas and other stuff all done by Mike. Then Mike got sick and recommended Brad to take over. The board took his word at face value and did not do any background check at all. Go talk to any board member and ask them about the "deal" Mike got. It is still pretty sweet.
DeleteI have battled greatly within as to whether I should comment, or allow myself to contribute to this blog at all. I knew nothing of it until recently and can say that it has troubled me deeply. As one that has lived through the agony of a very similar situation, I would compel all of you here to keep your eyes on Jesus. He never fails…He is still King and Lord over all. He is our rock and the one we can depend on.
ReplyDeletePeople need to learn not to idolize pastors and ministers, because they are mere flesh and blood. They get caught up in their own egos and sin just like everyone else. If you look back in scripture there were not many infallible men. David was a man after God’s own heart, yet he fell pray to the lust in his. Abraham failed miserably when he took matters into his own hands and slept with a woman that was not his wife in order to try and fulfill Gods promise to him. Sampson still ended up in God’s Hall of Fame even though he used his God-given strength to leverage his own desires. Then you have the disciples. They were all quite a bunch of misfits, yet Jesus selected them as his closest friends. Thankfully, God is no respecter of persons, but is abounding in grace toward us all. If He weren't, we would all certainly be in terrible trouble. Heaven forbid our own actions and thoughts be revealed before all men.
In regard to Jana Liebe, I can attest to the expectations of a Pastor’s wife. Many times they are unreasonable, not only by her husband and the church, but its leadership as well. She is a woman, pure and simple; a woman that has attempted to live her life to please God and take care of her family. Please do not place further expectations upon her that she should turn the greatest tragedy and pain of her life into a ministry as though somehow that will be the fruit of her or God’s victory in the end.
The mere fact that she is able to stand at all attests to God’s love, strength and grace, as well as her character.
Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled.
Ps 103:8, 10-14 The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love... He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgression from us. As a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.
-Vicki Myers
The problem is not with Brad. He proved himself to be a complete tool in Florida. He only did what he was expected to do. He has proven his character over and over again. The only thing wrong about the current situation is the fact that he was placed in a leadership position after he proved himself to be Biblically unworthy of such a position and that this was kept hidden from the congregation. The problem lies with the people that placed him there. These are the same people that are trying to say that Brad is the problem and we all need to move on. We can't move on because the problem is still here at Pathways. Who selected him to be the figurehead of Pathways? Lets solve the problem.
DeleteJust to set the record straight, the external auditors were only allowed to look into the last two years that Brad Liebe was at First Assembly. In that two year period, they discovered that they could prove that he had taken about $300K. They then told the SR Pastor, Dan Betzer, that they felt quite sure they could prove that over the course of the years he had been with First Assembly (which was a long time, about 15 years total time), that they could probably prove that he had taken a total closer to $700K. However, they told him that it would require a considerable amount of time to work through all that additional auditing and that they would not do it for free. They would need more money. Dan Betzer told them NO! He said that was enough. Again, he covered for him. Brad started at First Assembly as a youth pastor. Way back then, his staff figured out that he was taking money. They reported it up the ladder to Dan Betzer and, bingo, nothing was done about it. It was just dropped. Then, soon, he left First Assembly and went off to Copenhagen, Denmark where he worked with a Master's Commision group there. After a couple of years, Dan Betzer called him back to First Assembly and offered him the Associate Pastor's position. So, as you can see, a whole lot of the blame for all of this rests on the shoulders and conscience (of which he has none evidently) of Dan Betzer. He is almost as guilty as Brad is in that he did not turn him over to the proper authorities in the first place which would have put a stop to what he eventually did to the church in Wisconsin, Pathways. Supposedly, Brad told the First Assembly church Council (like a Board) that if they (the council) turned him over to the police, that he would "spill his guts" and that he had "lots to say" about Dan Betzer that would get him in hot water too. Who knows if that is true or not? But, in the end, no one prosecuted him. So, Pathways, you have good reason to be full of righteous indignation towards Mr. Betzer as well. Churches are no different that the world (even though they should be). It's a big business with a CEO and they are very political and cover for one another within the system. It might be time to reevaluate whether or not you want to remain a part of the now apostate church system. Never give up on God but it's okay to use the brains God has blessed you with to evaluate this entire situation (because it is not at all uncommon within the church system) and decided whether or not you want to continue to be used as a pawn within these money-hungry churches who are all competing against each other. If you are blessed enough to ever find a true pastor with a true pastor's heart and a church that is biblically run, then you are blessed indeed!!
ReplyDeleteJust for the record .... Dan Betzer has known about Brads affair with his sister in law for months and months. He was given the information that the board, ag leaders, larry liebe, etc etc was given
DeleteBetzer has about as much integrity as the Liebe's ....
why didn't he press charges against Brad? Why didn't he blow the whistle on Brad's affairs? He is just as corrupt and stealing at least as much money!
Betzer is a religious politician and it wasn't expedient for him to tell about Brad's affairs because Brad had too much dirt on Betzer.
I can't believe Jesus' church is in this state!
So .... let me clarify ... Brad had an affair with Kelly D. Not to be confused with his other affairs. Kelly D had an affair with Brad ... not to be confused with her other affairs.
DeleteWhat in the world do AG ministers do to their children?
Who does this stuff? Who fools around with their own in laws?
Please stop sending these people to AG schools where they will have no choice but to end up as AG ministers. They are not helping!
Seemingly, you have already indited Brad for embezzling at Pathways. That isn't something that is on the table at this point. We are talking adulterer right now. I doubt, even with an audit, you will be able to pin anything on Brad as to taking money. Brad learned from Florida. I don't think he would do anything illegal. It wouldn't be illegal to give himself raises or add to his fringe benefits. Monies taken from cash offerings would be impossible to trace - no paper trail there. If you do find he has taken money, will you be in a position to prosecute? Be aware that the IRS is going to step in, at that point, and rip the exemption status away. Would there be a Pathway's church then? You would be responsible for killing the golden goose, which is the church, to get revenge on Brad. He is not stupid. He knows that. Then what do you plan to do with the church loans and upkeep? I suppose you have to figure out what it is you really want..a church or revenge. The bottom line is that there is no embezzlement, as yet. For Pathway's future, I hope there isn't.
DeleteSoooo, we just let brad go unchecked and let him do the same thing to another good church?
DeleteBrad has done it very clearly in the past - admitted it - and had open run of Pathways.
How would God look upon us at Pathways. Letting someone go to save ourselves?
This MUST be checked into. ALL info must be made public no matter how embarrassing or risky it is to Pathways.
We have the chance to DO THE RIGHT THING now. If we sweep it under the rug and brad does it again to another Church, then we are enabling him and have a large degree of guilt.
Like it or not Pathways, we need to do the right thing. It is what we teach our children!!!!
You want to do the right thing? OK, You would need a strong group of Whistle Blowers, from the church, that would show they were strong enough to keep the church intact. This is tricky business. You want to do the right thing but you still want to have a church left. You merely call the IRS and report as a whistle blower. You have to make it clear to them you want and have a church body that will support this risk. Because it's an independent church, it's even riskier because there is little to no accountability. Denominations do have accountability. You have to have some proof of embezzlement. They have no interest in affairs, but have lots of interest in embezzlement. I suppose either way the church is dead in deep water.
DeleteProof? Should be easy. Brad said many times that when he came here he had to decide between a candy bar for his boy or a gallon of milk. Then 4 short years later, he has a house in Waupaca with 53 acres worth $500,000-700,000, a bmw, suburban, kids has all of the best gadgets, kid in private college, vacations in hawaii, Florida, disney land - all on a humble pastors salary.
DeleteRemember 4 years ago he said he was broke.
The numbers simply don't add up.
If you are only worried about Pathways surviving. You must have faith that GOD is actually in charge. He will watch over Pathways if we do the right thing. All of us have been through so many sermons about God is in charge. Were these sermons just words?
Don't worry about the finances, the loans, what will happen to the building. God isn't a building, loan or a financial report. Do you think God won't walk with us in doing the right thing?
We were always asked to have great faith. This is the time we must stand up and do what a God expects of his people.
My biggest fear is that we sweep this thing under the rug and brad goes somewhere else and does the same thing. God would not look favorable at the fact that we did NOTHING when we could have done what good Christians should have done.
Another Church could be taken completely down just because we wanted to save a building. Shame on us!!!
I have been told that there are great leaders at this Church. Let’s see if they are great leaders for Gods Church or just leaders of Pathways.
The real killer would be if someone finally had the courage to turn in First Assembly in Fort Myers to the IRS. That would put a pause on Brad's affairs (romantic and otherwise)! It would also show any wrong doing by Pastor Betzer. Since I am sure he has nothing to hide, it might help clear his infamous name!?! If all parties involved claim that their on the up-and-up then there certainly can't be anything to hide? Right?!?
DeleteI completely agree about Dan Betzer. There was a children's pastor that had worked along side Brad Leibe in Fort Myers and was doing the same thing! Four staff members reported it to Dan Betzer and were asked to leave...that they had no proof. We took absolute proof to Dan Betzer personally and was told that he would do nothing while his $5 million children's facility was being built because the people would stop giving for it. We were asked to leave as well. I thought much of Betzer to that point. We left church completely. I later found out that they fired that children's pastor after the new building was dedicated, but so many staff members lives had been ruined to get that building debt free.
DeleteFor the record ... Steve Tripp and Bob Adams have this one thing in common ... they are butt kissing religious politicians that are kissing Larry Liebe's butt for political reasons.
ReplyDeleteHere is what separates them.... one is a sniveling moron and the other has actually sullied himself in the mire of enabling Brad. The second that I speak of needs to be removed from his post along with Larry Liebe. I won't tell you which he is, but his initials are ST and he has a brown nose that wasn't worth it.
LOL - Steve actually protected his tweets. What District Youth Director protects his tweets? The guilty, that's who!
I don't understand, how do you protect your tweets? What does that mean? I don't understand why you would tweet something only to "protect" it? Could you please explain this to us less tech-savvy individuals? Thanks!
DeleteList of District Presbyters that were given information about the Kelly affair last fall:
ReplyDeleteortmans@juno.com
cawadrlr@yahoo.com
pastorjohnroy@goodnewsag.net
cag@frontiernet.net
pastordale@msn.com
danderson@clfonline.org
pastorbruce@homechurchconnections.org
pryan2@centurylink.net
markl@portviewchurch.com
johnd@poplarcreek.org
pastorharvey@parklawn.org
popetodd@nlag.net
brooks@oakcreekag.org
What good is this list of email addresses? If these folks did not come forward last fall there are not going to now, plus Pathways does not have any affiliation with AG Church so these folks mean nothing. I would like to see some proof that Pathways board had notification and covered it up. Provide PROOF that a message was sent. You can send this to me at charleswayne150@yahoo.com and I will take it to the appropriate people at Pathways.
DeletePerhaps pressure could be put on the list of email addresses for them to come clean with a clear conscience and share the notorious "said" email with Pathways members in order to get their church in order. It could be considered goodwill and chance for the AG to look ethical. It would behoove Pathways to work with the AG leadership to get to the bottom of this incredible coverup. It is clearly time to clean house and get some integrity back into our churches. Hopefully one of the men would want to step up and do the right thing in order to honor honor God publicly rather than play the cards of the good 'ol boys club. At the very least publicly outing these presbyters questions their ethics and true intentions. If they continue to be a party of the coverup, then they too are part of the sin, and can never again be fully trusted. Now let's see who has the courage to honor God.....? Anyone?
DeleteDoes anyone know exactly "what" was handed over to the presbyters/aog/staff? Because I think everyone on this witch hunt does not realize that unless there was proof of the affair they could do nothing. A man having an affair is going to deny it. They can't fire a man on speculation of an affair. From what we all know about Brad and his past, does anyone really think Brad would go down without a fight? I'm sure he pulled out all guns and made sure that he remained innocent until PROVEN guilty.
DeleteThe sister in law admitted it to her families and the AG missions leaders last July. Fact.
DeleteAsk Greg Mundis - Paul Weis - Roland Dudley .... when they knew .... it was last summer at the latest
DeleteAnd then continued to have the affair???
DeleteDoes anyone know how Brad is and how's his family doing?
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly what happened in Ft. Myers. It was swept under the table there; hence....Pathways has suffered and paid the price for that. If you want to pass that on to some other congregation somewhere else in this country (maybe far away on the west coast or something), then do nothing. If you want to stop it once and for all.....do something big.
ReplyDeleteBrad was turned in to the IRS in Ft. Myers. That is a fact. He is currently paying payments on what he owes the IRS for those past "earnings" (embezzlements). The headquarters of AOG in Springfield, MO HAD to turn him in for that or else lose their tax exempt status. This is a fact; not a rumor.
ReplyDeleteWhy wasn't this ever made known th Pathways? Or was it JJ???
DeleteYou can run a credit report on Brad to see what he owes the IRS. That's easy enough. Still, there is no proof of embezzlement at Pathways. The board is going to have to prove that. Do they want to? Is there some liability they would have to share? Maybe. There is no mother organization to report to. Only the IRS and God.
DeleteHow do I run a credit report on Brad without having his social security number?
DeleteSeem there are a handful of Florida folks hell bent on trying to stoke wet logs. Aren't you tired of being miserable. Harboring destructive bitterness and stirring gossip? Ready to move on from the witch hunt... especially since the house landed in OZ and Brad is no longer at Pathways. The sun still came up today. The throne room isn't vacant and Pathways IS moving on. Nothing that could ever happen will ever change what DID happen in Florida and it must suck cyber stalking being emotionally stuck in the past. I don't know if you've figured it out yet but hundreds of over a year and 100's of post later...your Electronic puking isn't accomplishing anything productive. But maybe it's cathartic for you and your temper tantrum will help you finally lay it to rest. The tone is vile and the hatred is palpable. Hope you repent and find freedom We're praying for you, Pathways Church, and the Liebe family.
ReplyDeleteSigned ... Sis N Law ... or one of the other girls Brad is porking?
DeleteYou people make me sick. Who do you think you are, standing in judgment of Pathways? If they hired a man that they knew was an admitted embezzler with multiple extra marital affairs that is none of your business. They are Godly people and your spiritual leaders. How dare you judge the decisions they make? If they knew about Brad and hired him anyway it is because they knew what was best. Anyone who disagrees with their choices is in rebellion. You all need to submit to your spiritual authorities and stop this nonsense. And most importantly keep tithing. Your very souls run the risk of damnation unless you stop questioning your spiritual authorities and start giving them the money that they rightly deserve.
DeleteHope you repent and find freedom. We're praying for you, Pathways Church, and the Liebe family.
Too bad all of this is true and can hardly be considered stalking. Brad hurt real people with real feelings. We're talking about deception, lying, cheating, andd stealing from good people in the name of God. This is outrageous and shocking to us! How dare you shun the victims of Brad's aftermath. This will carry-on for years to come, BECAUSE IT'S WRONG!!!!!
DeleteI am sadden (but not surprised) to be told I MUST obey my spiritual leaders or I am in rebellion to God and my soul "runs the risk of damnation". Wow...you drank the Pharisees Kool-Aid, didn't you? Do you not realize that this brain washed mind set is the cornerstone of spiritual abuse? Excuse me sister/brother, but my High Priest is JESUS...not a man, not a shepherd of the flock or hand picked "leadership". It seems as though you really do not know the word of God very well. Perhaps you're being spooned fed and do not study on your own? PLEASE: Read and study Ezekiel 34
DeleteI was saddened as well to hear other posts implying exactly what I blatantly stated in pretty outrageous terms. The intent was to make the message obvious. Too often we behave like "sheople," blindly following the commands, or thinly veiled threats, of our leaders as long as they couch it in a spiritual context. Too often we are afraid to use the discernment that we are commanded by God to apply to our leaders and their teachings. Such as the command of the leadership at Pathways that we are to keep this under wraps because that is the way the church should behave.
DeleteIf somebody came out and said in a church service the things I said in my previous post, most people would likely be appalled, and rightly so. The point is, when the exact same message is given but in flowery, spiritual mumbo jumbo terms, it is accepted as truth and goes unquestioned by many who claim to be Christians. I just wanted you to know we are on the same page. Hopefully this can be a wake up call to those who are too concerned about being a "good Christian" to do what Christ would do in this situation. (Which I believe would have more to do with turning over some tables than turning the other cheek)
Brad and Larry Liebe have gone to extraordinary lengths to deceive people, including their own wives and children. Why should we overlook that? Just because I'm a Christian does give them the right to take advantage of me? They are in the wrong, they do not feel remorse for what they've done to any of you! They only care about saving themselves enough to live freely in their undeserved wealth. Defend them all you want, but don't expect to be repected for aiding in tolerance of adultery and thievery.
ReplyDeleteWho are you.
DeleteShow your name...
Plz stop hifing behind anonymoud..so we can team together and let the entire pathways people know! Ill be the whistle blower ill print flyers ..whatever we can do
I am merely one of the many victims left in the wake of Pastor Liebe's destruction. I am just the same as you. I am sick to death of this man getting away with his crimes. Mary Kay Elsner, you do not need me to blow the whistle. Go to the news media, go to the IRS, go to the D.A. go to any source you can to get the word out on Brad LIebe so that he is unable to preach and teach again in the name of Jesus Christ. Those are the entities that can put a halt to his stream of lies. I can't do anything. If I expose myself I run the risk of losing my job and I can't afford to do that. I refuse to lose any more because of Brad. As far as I can tell, the Liebe family has done far more harm than good in this lifetime. Please people of Pathways put an end to it. You hold the cards now...
DeleteMary Kay Elsner it totally makes sense right? The Anonymous haters spewing garbage who can't produce anything beyond "trust me. it's a fact...I just can't provide proof...or my name...and I'm not willing to deal directly with leadership at Pathways....blah blah..." would like YOU to go and do because they're impotent efforts have done nothing but created a gripe zone for dysfunctional Pharisee fighting. It's accomplished zero kingdom good. Brad's gone. Print flyer for what....? To get brad removed? To call for the boards removal? To be a tool in the enemies hand to pull the focus off shining the love and grace of Christ to the Fox Valley.
ReplyDeleteI'm done...
DeleteI'm tired
If all is true God will serve justice.
I am seeking a new church...or maybe worship away from the crowds....
Maybe be alone with christ..
God bless u all.
#disgusted
My question is, why didn't Brad take the high road and step down when Kelly outed him last summer with her confession of the affair? A fallen pastor... he could have totally played the poor-me card and possibly kept his position. Why would he go to great lengths to hide it all? Didn't he realize that it would get out? WAY too many people knew about it to keep it quiet. The truth always comes out Brad, haven't you learned this yet? But instead, he put tons of people in a bad position to lie and cover for him. Now he has made a mockery of the AG and Pathways, not to mention a mockery of his marriage! Arrogance, it's just pure arrogance... and pride and narcissism.... scary that so many people fall in love with men like Brad. I wonder what the attraction is?
ReplyDeleteThe short answer is: Kelly Dudley is not an innocent victim and is just as sick as Brad. They are kind of "Bonnie and Clyde" if you will.
DeleteThe Assemblies of God is an extremely dysfunctional organization. Some, not all, but some of the children from ministers families grow up with several attributes.
Delete1. The inability to function or make a living outside of ministry.
2. They secretly or subconsciously hate ministry because it robbed them of a normal childhood.
3. The wreck the things of God. Steal, cheat, whatever.
4. All the while, they know how to fit into the club and say the right spiritual sounding things and people are always quite shocked to find duplicity.
5. They feel entitled. God's people, church, whatever ... owe them.
Brad Liebe and Kelly Dudley are products of their environment. Look at it objectively. Even when the Liebe's, Dudleys, and Weis' knew about the sex and embezzlement they fought to cover it up so their kids careers wouldn't be interuppted. It is just sick.
I feel a need to channel Susan Powter and scream "Stop the Insanity"! People, this is accomplishing NOTHING, other than to cause Satan to rub his hands together in glee. YES,if you attend(ed) the Fort Myers church where Brad served, you have a right to be hurt. YES, if you are a Pathways member you have a right to be hurt. It is time to put that it behind you and move on. What is left to "prove"?? He was fired in both places for his offenses. His adultery was discovered at Pathways, and action taken. If you think you can "prove" a cover-up you are sorely mistaken. Even if you could, what would that accomplish, other than to cause more disruption and suspicion? Continuing this crusade only plays into Satan's hands. Work instead on "proving" there are loving, God-fearing people in that church who want to see Pathways be a light to the community and not a hive of gossip. Pray for strength for the staff left to clean up the mess. Pray for Brad's repentance. Pray for healing for his wife and children, as well as his mistress and her family. Pray that the board will use better judgement this time around in selecting a lead pastor. Get involved in a POSITIVE fashion, which does not mean printing up flyers. THE BOARD ALREADY KNOWS IT SCREWED UP. Why rub their nose in it? It's up to God to have the last word here, not you.
ReplyDeleteI've read the entire blog and am familiar with the entire episode.
DeleteOur family has attended Pathways in the past but got bad "vibes" about the church and didn't return.
It's my opinion that the entire board should resign (or be fired) and that the church body should elect a new board to restore some credibility to the church. Otherwise, Pathways will self-destruct like the previous church that occupied the same building.
Well Mr. Wayne Charles or Charles Wayne (whatever your name is) if you read the entire blog you will notice that virtually all the statements have been accurate. Does it offend you that people want the truth? Does it hurt your feelings when people say the AG is dysfunctional? Do you get angry when people call your beloved Larry Liebe a master of deception like his son? What war are you fighting? I hope these people push and push and push until they get the answers they deserve. I hope the church eliminates people like the Liebe's. I hope they are persistent in there quest to find truth and rip these false leaders from there throne. I'm not angry as much as I am sickened by the state of our church today. We have an overabundance of leaders who are cheats, thieves, adulterers and basically fakes. Please people of this blog do not be bullied by the "show me proof" people. So far you have done just that. Brad was questioned about his spending in Fort Myers. People rushed to his side to defend him. Guess what? He stole $300,000 in the last 2 years of his reign that is a fact. Brad was is hot water with the AG missions over money that is a fact. Brad was confronted as a youth pastor over stealing gifts and money from angel tree that is a fact. Brad was alleged to have an affair and people ran to his side again to defend him. That as you know was not a fact. He actually had two documented affairs. Pathways needs to do an outside audit if nothing else to follow through with its due diligence. Larry Liebe needs to stand up and defend what he has been accused of. If the truth is on his side then scream it from the mountain tops. Guilty people typically stay quiet and hope that it blows over. Do not let this situation die out until total and complete transparency has taken place. If you do not people of Pathways you will be allowing this family to keep on hurting innocent people.
ReplyDeleteWell said!
DeleteFor those who would like to simply "move on." I see almost 33,000 pages viewed. Obviously this is a very important topic. 33,000 that huge. Dont allow those who are hiding this to win. This issue needs to be seen through to completion.
ReplyDeleteTalked with Mr. Eaton. He is evasive, smooth talking and a liar. What a waste of time. Is he leading the search for our new pastor? I heard they hired a company. We will have any voice? We need an all church meeting!!!
ReplyDeleteJJ Eaton is a poser too. The leadership stands up in front of the church and says they are available if you need to talk. We called, Mr. Eaton called us back. He said he would get back to us and he has yet to call. We have called him and he does not return our calls.
DeletePeople... these are the leaders that will pick your new Pastor! Wake up, they are wolves in sheep's clothing too. They don't take any accountability for their part and want this to just smooth over and go away. They don't believe Brad should be accountable either.
We are asking questions and they don't like it! Keep asking, get answers to your concerns.
This whole thing is sick - The easy thing is to blame everyone even close to Pathways. Put them all in one unholy and unrighteous bucket. That's the easy way out for all of you. You are WRONG!
DeleteDo you know Jj personally? Would he call you by name if he saw you? Have you ever talked with him? do you know his ethics PERSONALLY? I DON'T THINK SO.
I do, and have served and played in the band with him. You can judge the outside view anytime you'd like, but this is hard for him also. He is a great family man, a great business person, and a great church leader in a tough spot.
Again, how much private time have you spent with him? That's like you criticizing a political candidate whom you have never talked to or don't know. All else is heresay. Let's have people that show an IQ over 90 start commenting.
What we need at Pathways is a better, more transparent model of church leadership.
ReplyDeleteChurch elder board members should not be business leaders running the church like a business. Rather spirtual leaders of integrity. Having board members with terms would be a great start...
Just for fun, let's take a look at Willow Creek... http://www.willowcreek.org/governance
Church Governance
A Biblical Model of Church Leadership
Throughout the New Testament, principles of church leadership point to a central theme: plurality. The church is to be led by a plurality of godly leaders. By relying on consensual agreement of godly Elders selected from the congregation, the church creates a healthy checks-and-balances of leadership direction, financial accountability, spiritual guidance, and ministry implementation.
Willow Creek implements these biblical principles in its leadership structure. A strategy of biblically based policies and guidelines within its Elder board and ministry leaders guides ministry decisions and ensure that a healthy, God-honoring implementation of leadership and pastoral care is carried out. Willow has been blessed by more than three decades of impeccable, godly leadership from an Elder board whose heart beats for the kingdom of God as expressed through the local church. We look to the future with confidence, thanks to the servant leadership this team of seasoned Christ followers provides.
Policy Governance: Optimizing Elder Direction and Staff Leadership
Willow Creek’s Elders provide spiritual oversight, direction, and leadership for the overall church, entrusting the implementation of that direction to ministry leaders and staff, under the leadership of Senior Pastor Bill Hybels. Senior staff leadership is held accountable for fulfilling the Elder board’s direction. This system of organizational leadership, known as Policy Governance, allows the Elders to focus their gifts and time on their biblical mandate to lead and shepherd the church, while allowing ministry leaders (staff) the opportunity to maximize their gifts and talents as they lead their ministries and make practical decisions on how to implement and carry out the direction provided by the Elders.
How are Elders selected?
The Elders, who serve as representatives of the church, are nominated by the congregation and undergo a prayerful screening, interview, and approval process. Approved candidates are then presented to Willow's participating members, who have a 30-day opportunity to express any concerns directly to a nominated Elder candidate, utilizing the principles for conflict resolution that Jesus taught in Matthew 18. Once approved, Elders serve a four-year term. Elders are not paid staff; they serve as volunteers. The completed Elder board consists of 12 Elders plus the senior pastor (Bill Hybels) who provides a key link between the Elder board and the staff. Each member of the Elder board has equal voice to the system of consensual agreement on the team.
What do the Elders do?
The tasks and responsibilities of the Elders vary greatly and require discernment as the board strives to keep the church on its biblical course. The Elder board tackles key issues facing the church. These include:
•Determining the overall vision and future direction of the church.
•Creating policies to define clearly church values and biblical operating procedures.
•Ensuring the church’s teachings and practices reflect accurate biblical theology.
•Providing avenues for pastoral care, conflict resolution, discipline, and restoration.
•Providing direction on financial or risk-management issues.
•Providing accountability to the senior pastor, to ensure the vision and values determined by the Elders are being carried out.
The bottom line is, Pathways is organized the way it is for a reason. The members do not have a say in selecting their leaders for a reason. Their is no transparency about their finances for a reason. They do not follow Biblical standards of church organization for a reason. Do you really need to know what the reason is to decide whether or not you should support an organization that has produced the results that it has? Do you really think it is worthwhile to try to change a structure that the leaders do not want to change when you could be supporting Biblically based churches instead?
DeleteAnd as we are learning from the Assemblies of God, that even when you DO have the proper policies in place, they are not followed entirely. It is subject to the ethics of the leadership... These elders and presbyters and officials and pastors and administrators are really only interested in making money... that is the state of our churches today. It's big business! And we are just the pawns they get to play with. I have given up on organized religion, and I will blame the Liebe's and Betzer's for that! Great job guys, I am certain I am not the only one!
DeleteChurch goers of Pathways, it appears that your leadership is no different and you have absolutely no say in how it's run, nor do you have the opportunity to fix your beloved church. Your leadership is too egotistical to allow good people to come in and "fix" it. They have allowed Satan to run amuck within those walls... He's in charge now. Good LUCK!
Geez Brad... look what you have created! And still no remorse! Unreal....
Absolutely I believe it is worth making an attempt to get the church governance structure right in the eyes of the Lord.
DeleteJesus didn't have to flip the tables in the temple, but He did! He could have taken the easy path and just walked on to the next church down the street, but He didn't! He saw the problem and went after it!
It is absolutely critical that Pathways gets it right. If there is no change in the church governance structure then it is definitely time to move on.
We can never get it right, if the Board doesn't first get it right. They govern everything and we have no say so. Its really a sad place to be and because of that sad place, we have decided to worship elsewhere. I hope we don't hear of more sad things at Pathways in the future.
DeleteWhat should a person on an elder board look like?
ReplyDeleteElder Qualifications
http://www.willowcreek.org/aboutwillow/church-governance/elders/elder-qualifications
Listen, People make mistakes. Not denying the fact that what he did was wrong and that yes it would be best that he be removed from the board of the church for now, but instead of hounding him lets pray for him and his family. We as fellow Christians should know best that sin is sin and all of us have committed it. We have no right to judge him and we have no right to gossip about him. I Believe the best thing to do now is pray and hope is him and his family can fight through this. It's quite sad that all these so called "Christians" on this page only have words of judgment.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone heard Brad or Larry or Steve Tripp apologize yet??
DeleteIt's pretty hard not to be upset when these fine "Christian" men have yet to feel any amount of remorse for lying, cheating and stealing.
It's easy for people who are unconnected to these guys to throw around their self-righteous opinions and JUDGEMENTS. But if your life has been drastically altered by these men, you have every right to feel pain, sadness, frustration and anger. There is absolutely NO reason we should accept their behavior, Christian or otherwise! Their actions are criminal and I don't have to accept it.
When Brad was caught in the first affair with Kelly Dudley, biblically he was to step down from his position and ask for forgiveness, instead he chose to cover it up and threaten anyone who tried to tell the truth. He then continued on with a second affair all the while "playing" pastor. He's a fraud and a creep!!! Not to mention him serving as a pastor after embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course or 15 years, and chosing to forgo any kind of reconciliation or counciling! how arrogant! How do you put yourself back in the pulpit after that?
Please do not tell ME how wrong I am for being disappointed, disgusted and in absolute disbelief of his behavior!
The day I hear brad give a genuine remorseful apology is the day I will take a gentler approach. Until then.....
Might wait a while for that apology. His brother Brandon says Brad is not remorseful or repentant, which is why he was not in church to offer an apology when the announcement was made.
DeleteInteresting.....didn't JJ stand in front of the congregation and say that Brad was remorseful and was going to work on his marriage. It didn't feel right then(because Brad wasn't the one to stand in front of us and say it) and odd now, that he is tweeting about his dock and boat and children, but NO mention about his wife or his struggles to repair things. This man is NOT remorseful. He is narssistic and does not believe he has done anything wrong.
DeleteNepotism in the church has shielded Brad over the years and still continues to do it. We have to go forward now that's what the board wants us to do. I have always been taught that behavior has consequences, where are Brads?
I wasn't judging. So not all of the christians on this page were saying that.
ReplyDeleteSooooo.....anonymous.......who are you to judge the rest of us by calling us "so-called" Christians? Sounds pretty judgmental to me! You have no idea who on this page is a true, solid, mature, seriously dedicated-to-God Christian and who is a CINO (Christian in Name Only). The Bible makes it very clear that we ARE to judge one another (fellow believers) in order to keep us accountable and on the right path. There is absolutey nothing wrong with judging this "pastor" who is not even a believer (proven by his actions/his "fruit") and to warn others away from him. Nothing at all wrong with doing that. In fact, we are told in scripture that we ARE to "mark" those who are wolves/false shepherds, etc. We are to name the names. To do any less than that would also be a sin.
ReplyDeleteSo true!! We are to "mark and avoid" wolves in sheep's clothing. Failure to follow this command, is a HUGE "churchianity" sacred cow these days. Woe to those who try to tip that golden cow. This requires knowledge of God's word, which most believes overall do not have. They're still being spoon fed milk and they like it that way. Better to sweep the FAOG and Pathways mess (that Brad brought) under the rug, pacify the people ("Our best days are ahead...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain")and pass the Brads of this church world along elsewhere. He's not our problem anymore and if we continue to deal with this publically we'll lose all that money coming in. Don't rock the boat! Don't talk about it in groups, etc. The "churchianity" Emperor has no clothes
DeleteI think this Pathways board can fix the problem. They will select the next pastor and make sure he does everything THEY say to do. Friends, it starts with the board.
DeleteThanks JJ.And I have a bridge to sell you.
DeleteInteresting reading. This may explain where some of you are and maybe you didn't even know it.
ReplyDeletehttp://theschoolofchrist.org/blog/the-fig-tree-has-no-figs.html
Excellent article. Thanks for sharing.
DeleteIn this week's church bulletin it said the weekly budget was $35,000 for last week & a little more than $22,000 was taken in. It would appear folks are starting to speak with their wallets. I've not seen the collection amount be this low in a long time.
ReplyDeleteAnd, Pastor Gary was back on stage with the music group. What is that about?? Has anyone seen him there since he left in March? No one on this blog seems to know why he left.
I know many criticize this blog and it frustrates me too. I think there is a group of us posters here who genuinely are looking for answers from each other but none of us seem to be in the loop enough. This is the second time I'm posting about Pastor Gary. It seems like no one knew anything before. Anyone know anythingg now?
Also.. anyone else find it interesting, odd, coincidental, that a grand piano is donated to the church NOW? What is that about?
I obviously go to this church & I'm obviously looking for some answers. Anyone else who goes to this church.. and has some information.. please share here. I'm not really not interested in hearing about Fort Myers anymore.
You must not have been in church the weekend Gary's resignation was announced. It was clearly stated that he was leaving for other opportunities but that he and his family would still be attending Pathways. I have seen them there many times since. Given his musical abilities why shouldn't he continue to serve on the worship team? As for the donation of the piano, I suggest you ask Pastor Lance if you want the story. I did.
DeleteAll of you that play the Christian forgiveness card, are doing nothing more than enabling a mentally ill, bad man get away with an abounding amount of sin and deceit. You are telling him that its okay, we all screw up and sin, move forward and it will all be ok. But guess what!?! It's not okay!! Somewhere Jana is sitting alone and confused, because YOU are telling her husband that you forgive him and it will all be fine. Don't you understand that you are being played? Can you see the damage you're doing? Brad is a really horrible person, he doesn't function like the rest of us. Please stop encouraging him!
ReplyDeleteCan you believe it. Someone that actually think you can forgive someone as a christian. Even if they don't respond the way you think they should?! Ludicrous right....oh wait...Christ died for you WHILE you were reprobate, unrepentant and a loser. If you had an iota of genuine concern for Jana you'd be reaching out to her directly and not dragging her family name through this blog to get you hatred kicks for brad on. Get a clue
DeleteSpoken like a true Christian!
DeleteLIebe is a sociopath... and you are blinded by his charisma. I know it hurts, but you really can't expect him to play this game like a normal person. He's in it to win it and will stop at nothing to curb his desires. He can't be reasoned with, he can't be trusted, he refuses to be held accountable for his actions. This can be hard to understand and I know you want to believe the best in people, but please hear me, he is a very dangerous man. I've been there, I've tried to help, you can't make a difference. The ONLY one that can make Brad accountable is Jana. She holds all the cards, because she has every right to leave him and never let him see his children. She has the right to commit him to the lawful authorities or a mental health institute. Only she can make a difference in this. That is a lot to grasp and I very highly doubt she could do it, but she is the only one. No one else can help him. Not even you and your good "Christian" intentions.
Then start your own blog and limit it to Pathways people's comments. Simple.
ReplyDeleteIt was no secret Gary quit because of Brad. Also, I saw him drumming at Celebration Church in Green Bay. I said hi but he didn't seem to recognize me. I was told he was asked back when all this came down.
ReplyDeleteLance is leaving as worship Pastor. So sad that we hear these things from outside the church, instead of our leaders sharing this news with us inside the church first. They want Gary back to fill the spot.
DeleteHow do you know Pastor Lance is leaving? and if so, why has he not stepped forward and told everybody this? Really? Do I see another shocking church service in the future? This is getting so sad and crazy!!
DeleteI really don't understand why you would want to be apart of such a secretive and selfish church? The board sounds crooked and awful, this church doesn't stand a chance if the board isn't over turned. Not only should the congregation leave in droves, but so should the staff! You all need some serious healing and you are not going to find it in this mess with a board run by JJ Eaton. It is a very somber thought, I'm sorry, but it is reality.
ReplyDeleteAGREE! There are still so many that don't want to see what's right in front of there eyes. They will pretend, with the leaders, that everything is fine and will try to make the church go on. Sad, Sad, Sad!
DeleteThe board needs to go!
How can we get JJ removed?
DeleteYou have to ask how much money Brad made off with from Pathways. He is tweeting from his high dollar boat at his high dollar lake house on Sunday. Pathways is still hurting and he has "no worries" ... just living the good life ... He and his sister in law are serial offenders.
ReplyDeleteBrad Liebe, Kelly Dudley, Larry Liebe and the rest of the family that has covered for these two for years (Kelly/Brad) need to all get out of ministry and never return. They have caused way too much damage as it is.
Remember that just 4 short years ago, he was crying during sermons that he was so broke that he had to decide to buy a gallon of milk or a candy bar for his kid.
DeleteJJ told us he doesn't remember Brad ever saying that. So glad others remember it. Now we find out he has a $750, 000 home on Spencer Lake, a home in Applton (not anymore) big cars, vacations ect. What a humble Pastor....(not)we wonder how much of those things we've contributed to. Not what I wanted my tithe to support.
DeleteHe's still on the payroll. Ask the board.
DeleteBrad said it in at least 4 sermons. He said he had to put the candy bar on his credit card and he was hoping that it would clear. He said that because he went through that he could sympathize with anyone else that went through extremely difficult money problems - the poor specifically.
DeleteIt was actually quite touching. Poor Brad. Poor, poor brad. - using his kid to hit us emotionally. Yeah, poor brad. Pretty good con job, brad.
JJ doesn't remember that? He could simply ask anyone in his family, or other church members, or board members or church employees.
Again, when Brad started there, you stopped giving to Gods Church long ago and were giving to Brad's cookie jar and the boards church.
I have gone and won't be back until it is fixed.
Fix it Board.
Yes.... Brad still is on the payroll. Imagine that. Commit adultery....one of Gods commandments and you are still paid, after your fired.
DeleteThis does happen at other churches. I'm really loosing my faith in ALL churches and the leadership of them.
Just wondering how you know Brad is still getting paid.
Delete#1) Sociopaths are charming. Sociopaths have high charisma and tend to attract a following just because people want to be around them. They have a "glow" about them that attracts people who typically seek guidance or direction. They often appear to be sexy or have a strong sexual attraction. Watch out for over-the-top sexual appetites and weird fetishes.
ReplyDelete#2) Sociopaths are more spontaneous and intense than other people. They tend to do bizarre, sometimes erratic things that most regular people wouldn't do. They are unbound by normal social contracts. Their behavior often seems irrational or extremely risky.
#3) Sociopaths are incapable of feeling shame, guilt or remorse. Their brains simply lack the circuitry to process such emotions. This allows them to betray people, threaten people or harm people without giving it a second thought. They pursue any action that serves their own self interest even if it seriously harms others. This is why you will find many very "successful" sociopaths in high levels of government, in any nation.
#4) Sociopaths invent outrageous lies about their experiences. They wildly exaggerate things to the point of absurdity, but when they describe it to you in a storytelling format, for some reason it sounds believable at the time.
#5) Sociopaths seek to dominate others and "win" at all costs. They hate to lose any argument or fight and will viciously defend their web of lies, even to the point of logical absurdity.
#6) Sociopaths tend to be highly intelligent, but they use their brainpower to deceive others rather than empower them. Their high IQs often makes them dangerous.
#7) Sociopaths are entirely self-serving. They may feign love or compassion in order to get what they want, but they don't actually FEEL love in the way that you or I do.
#8) Sociopaths speak poetically. They are master wordsmiths, able to deliver a running "stream of consciousness" monologue that is both intriguing and hypnotic. They are expert storytellers and even poets.
#9) Sociopaths are delusional and literally believe that what they say becomes truth merely because they say it!
Can anyone recognize the pattern? Brad Liebe
Brad Liebe and Kelly Dudley exactly!
DeleteInteresting that they both married the same personality type .... they married people that were easily manipulated and could be lied to 24/7 .... and they just happened to be brother and sister.
Brad and Kelly get together and it is like fire and gasoline.
Any ideas as to how we get the church as a whole to deal with the board issues? I think most don't hve any idea.
ReplyDeleteMost don't. I don't. However - if giving continues to go down the leaders will have no choice but to step up to the plate with an open forum meeting. It is so scary to feel so betrayed by the people we have trusted over the years of Pathways.
DeleteAgree!
DeleteLooks like one less board member according to the Pathways website.
ReplyDeleteYep.... it was the good one too. If JJ Eaton's name stays on the website and others go away .... that means the ones that are left are his "yes" men. This is not going in the right direction.
DeleteI could just sit down and cry...I am feeling so betrayed by the leaders of church. Why do they not come out in the open and REALLY tell us what is going on. The tithe givings will continue to dwindle until they can't make payroll or building expenses and then where will our church be. How can they ask us to be faithful in our giving when we can't trust what they are telling us every weekend. Pastor Lance keeps stating how "transparent" they want to be when really they just keep pulling the wool over our eyes. How sad ;(
DeleteOk, here is how change will have to take place. First, the church is not bunch of buildings nor is it a board, it is the people. YOU are the church!!! Gather together the people / membership and meet. If the physical church will not allow you to meet in one of the rooms then meet off campus. Draft a letter detailing changes that need to be made. Here are a few changes to get you started: 1. All board members must be elected by the membership and have TERMS to those seats that are available. You determine what those terms are. 2. All potential senior pastor candidates must be brought to the board through a search committee comprised of members other than the board. The board then prescreens these candidates and ultimate brings in a few select men or women to preach on any given Sunday. Once you have narrowed things down to one candidate they are brought back in to preach one more time. A vote of the membership must be taken at this time. You will have to determine if it is a simple majority, two thirds or percentage.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that the senior pastor position should be the only position that is elected. The staff should be hired at the senior pastor’s discretion.
All of this would be a change to your bylaws but a necessary one. Have all that attend this meeting sign as a show of solidarity. Present the information to the current board and allow them to act accordingly. Here is the tough part. If the current board refuses to make changes, you must be willing to move on from Pathways and worship somewhere else.
My intent for this post is not to incite a church split but to help facilitate a change in the church which is long over due.
I am sure that Brad is still on payroll as he is receiving some form of severance. I agree with the suggestions above, but unfortunately because there has been no public forum as of yet....church members are afraid of being "shunned". Myself included or I would not post as "anonymous". I love Pathways and want to see the church grow stronger as a result of this NOT dissolve. The church body should be informed of how long Brad's salary and benefits will be in place so that once that is over, the weekly budget shoud drop. Asking people to meet one on one is really the cowardly way out. If they are proud of their decisions and actions going forward, have an open discussion one evening to discuss this. NOT during service. One on one just leads to more rumors and "he said/she said" and uncertainty. Why do the current Pastors not care about this uneasy feeling. All of us know they are reading this blog right along with us ....so please, Pathways leaders, as you read this, address the concerns and issues amongst your church family before it is too late.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you SURE Brad is still on the payroll and received some sort of severance. Have you talked to Jeff Smith, Treasurer, and asked him. If not you have NO basis to say what you did.
DeleteIf JJ Eaton remains in charge ... you will see Brad again. JJ didn't want to get rid of him when he was caught red handed with a woman in a hotel room. He wanted to send him on a sabbatical.
ReplyDeleteIm done with this church !!!!
ReplyDeleteso sad, BEST MUSIC TEAM IN THE FOX VALLEY
LISTEN EVERYONE!
ReplyDeleteBe at church this weekend for news, of big changes, going forward!!!!!
Please post this news for those of us who can't be there this weekend.
DeleteWhat happened??
DeleteIf you live in the Valley and you want to know what is happening..........GO TO THE SERVICE. For those of you in Ft. Myers it is time to get over whatever happened there.
DeleteI really hope that they are going to announce the all church meeting this weekend, because it has to happen soon!
ReplyDeleteIt must happen or people that haven't left yet will leave.
The most important announcement in the REEL should be the all church meeting!
Pathways .... you have a great and powerful church, but you have to get rid of JJ Eaton. Any scenario that allows JJ Eaton to remain on the board is a loser.
ReplyDeleteJJ knew about Brad and the money, he knew about Brad and the sister in law. He is trouble.
Also, beware Brad trying to start a church close by with JJ ... he will try and split Pathways. These AG preacher kids are not in it for the kingdom.... they are in it for themselves.
From what I'm reading...would that be a bad thing?
DeleteAnd they could make it a reality show! And then we could was watch jail cell interviews of them on Dateline!
DeleteNotice the Liebe tweets ... Brad and family ... not one hint of remorse for what has happened to Pathways.
ReplyDeleteKelly Dudley was the same way with the havoc she created ....
Pathways ... get rid of JJ Eaton - hold Larry Liebe and Steve Trip accountable .... and move on!
Who is Stever Trip?
DeleteSo I discovered there is a board member-Mary Boegh- who is chatting it up with Brad on twitter. What is that all about. He has hurt us greatly and now she is being his buddy!!! The board should be leaving him and cleaving to their church body. It needs to be others besides our board who should be his support system! Where is the wisdom? It brings into question what his "friends"gave him in severance? Did they put any legal restrictions on him. Are they all going to start a church with this criminal?
ReplyDeleteDon't be surprised. You would be amazed at the number of people who continue to fawn over him at First Assembly in Ft. Myers. No spiritual discernment whatsoever. No common sense. No wisdom.
ReplyDeleteWhat a tragic series of events, but rest assured that God has a purpose for exposing this corruption and it will make the local church (Fox Valley) stronger in the end. We (@Wellspring at the Cross) have been in prayer for those who are wounded by the misdeeds of Brad and others in leadership, since this was announced.
ReplyDeleteI want to encourage those who feel led to stay at Pathways to fight for the truth in full and don't accept the lies, obfuscation or attempts to minimize these problems. Brad should obviously never have been allowed to "serve" in ministry after what appears to have gone down in Florida. That he was (due to charisma & cronyism) demonstrates how the church (at large) has become corrupted into a business and not a place to worship & grow in the Lord. There are lambs who are deeply wounded, and ministering to them while exposing the truth might take precedence over your personal needs or the desire to save the organization itself. Seek God on whether to remain, and if so, ask what His will is for you to do.
For others, the writing is on the wall and you already know it is time to move on. Unfortunately, I've been in this position recently, and I understand the pain, like you just got kicked in the gut and are headed for a divorce. Some will be want to quit fellowship altogether, others will flock to hide in another large congregation, and still others will move to home churches where they can avoid professional clergy. I want to encourage you to "not give up meeting together" (Heb 10:25) and to continue seeking for where God would place you to help minister to you at this time and to bring you renewal.
I encourage you to take heart by recognizing the season and what God is doing in the Fox Valley. You are certainly not alone in going through this, though it may feel that way. "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God" (1 Pet 4:17a). He is sending the fire and tearing down what was intended for the glory of prideful men and not Him.
A couple of years ago, I left a church & denomination here in Appleton because the pastor was counseled my sister-in-law to end her marriage, since she was "falling out of love". That pastor was recently removed for sexual harassment. The next church I attended, the pastor's ego seemed uncontainable and he was trying to squeeze the congregation to give more than appropriate. By then I was "born again", and I felt led to confront several pastors before God granting my peace to leave.
ReplyDeleteStanding up in those situations is difficult, because these institutions are designed for self-preservation. They know how to remove the obstacles. Stand up and you risk being attacked and humiliated, branded a traitor of the very institution that you once vigorously defended.
After those 2 churches, I came to my third church, where a church leader was unjustly vilified by a rebellious "mob", and leadership seemed to take the expedient path of removing that leader in order to pacify this group of people, thus keeping the membership level/payroll healthy and the head pastor's ego in tact. Few people took the time to actually investigate and find that it was only lies that drove this, eventually leading to a church split.
Finally, in my own business partnership, the same personalities and self-centered egos have bubbled at the top. Partners that I once thought were Christians have shown their true colors, and it is all about pride and greed, uglier than I couldve ever imagined, and I found myself, at one point, terminated illegally from the very company I founded.
Similar events are going on behind the scenes of other churches in the valley, not that it should be any comfort. God is judging our man-centered systems & churches, He is exposing the wolves, but He is doing so because He loves His church. He is also raising up good shepherds and leaders to take us out of this mess and to restore His ways and to bless us. Cling to Him in your time of need and seek His guidance; He will not let you down.
Thank you for your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteUh oh. Looks like this comments page is full again already. I will set up a new page called Spiritual Wisdom is Good - Part 4 for you to leave your comments. Do NOT put any more comments on this page. They will not show up. Go to the new page (part 4) instead and leave your comments there.
ReplyDeleteHere is the link to get you to Part 4:
ReplyDeletehttp://wisdomseekerprov4.blogspot.com/2013/05/spiritual-wisdom-in-good-part-4.html